Post Post-Heyward Discussion Here.

The Tariff King

The Tariff King

Trade War Deadline Winner
Staff member
Thread dedicated to the man who to many in Braves Country, was the best player on the team, and the guy we were supposed to build our team around for the future.

Anyhow, I stumbled upon this article and it brings up points I've held steadfast about Heyward the last few years.

http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2014/12...d-power-decline-and-his-approach-at-the-plate

  • Heyward should've been the #3 hitter after Chipper retired, not Freeman.
  • Heyward changed his approach at the plate when being forced to leadoff, thus it had a detrimental effect on his power numbers.
  • Freeman's going to make 20 million a year starting in 2017. Anyone here who thinks Heyward wasn't worth 18-20 million compared to Freddie are crazy.

The fact that Heyward was our only viable option to leadoff because everyone else sucked at it ended up hurting Jason's numbers overall. Less opportunities with men on base, different mindset on the approach at the plate.

When people like niners complain Heyward wasn't worth the money I have to ask what games were you watching?

And if we gave Simmons all of this money with really only 1.5 years of experience based on elite defense with potential for offense, why didn't we do the same for Jason who's got more sample size to deal with and has shown way more potential because he's actually done it for an entire year?
 
All right, let's propose this scenario. I don't know any of the financial parameters but Heyward traded for 2 'decent'++ pitchers. Heyward performs very well for St. Louis, probably even a career year going into free agency. Braves finally shed dead weight off payroll going into free agency (BJ, Uggla, possibly JUp). Braves go after Heyward next offseason, offer him "Freeman-esque" contract equal to what he and his agent wants, Heyward (even though he loves St. Louis because everyone does) decides to come back home and is a Brave again! Braves pick up 2 extra pitchers, waited a year until their bank account allowed them to pay Heyward and get their 'star' back! It has happened before. If memory serves, we had the reverse happen to us with the Kenny Lofton trade.

That should delight the Heyward fans for a few minutes of daydreaming!! :tchop:
 
It would have been very helpful to have Heyward as a strong in-house alternative for center. The off-season is still young. Hopefully, we'll find someone to play center.
 
BJ#1FAN said:
Thread dedicated to the man who to many in Braves Country, was the best player on the team, and the guy we were supposed to build our team around for the future.

Anyhow, I stumbled upon this article and it brings up points I've held steadfast about Heyward the last few years.

http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2014/12...d-power-decline-and-his-approach-at-the-plate

  • Heyward should've been the #3 hitter after Chipper retired, not Freeman.
  • Heyward changed his approach at the plate when being forced to leadoff, thus it had a detrimental effect on his power numbers.
  • Freeman's going to make 20 million a year starting in 2017. Anyone here who thinks Heyward wasn't worth 18-20 million compared to Freddie are crazy.

The fact that Heyward was our only viable option to leadoff because everyone else sucked at it ended up hurting Jason's numbers overall. Less opportunities with men on base, different mindset on the approach at the plate.

When people like niners complain Heyward wasn't worth the money I have to ask what games were you watching?

And if we gave Simmons all of this money with really only 1.5 years of experience based on elite defense with potential for offense, why didn't we do the same for Jason who's got more sample size to deal with and has shown way more potential because he's actually done it for an entire year?
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I wish we wouldn't have jacked him around, too, and I thought he did change his approach in hopes of helping the club, with a detrimental effect on his power numbers.

That said, he never progressed as a hitter. His best OBP by far was his rookie year, his BA was quite pedestrian throughout, and his ISO last year was just pitiful. I don't care if he's taking 2% more pitches and going the other way 2% more, he became a 6'6" Judy hitter.

Certain hitters are tinkerers. And they have very uneven careers in terms of power and contact and so forth. Ripken was one. Yastrzemski was another. You'd look at their latest stance or setup and say, what the hell made him think that would work? This past year's outside-in bat angle for Heyward was his latest bizarre move. I think he needs a coach he respects to keep him out of the weeds. I remember whenever he would have a positive change, Chipper would explain it to the AJC, what they were doing and why. Never really got the sense that was happening with Walker.

I guess we'll never know the specifics of the money that was discussed and when, but there was always a gap between what was predicted from him and what he actually gave you. Apparently he wanted to be paid for potential and the Braves weren't game.

If $18m-20m for eight years would have gotten him, I suspect he would still be here.
 
I was always under the impression that he was offered a similar contract to Freeman's, but opted for a two-year deal. I have no reason to believe anything, but I took that as a sign that he wanted to test free agency unless totally blown away by the contract offer.

Article is interesting, but I don't think a lot of it holds up. Two-dimensional statistics are helpful, but it's a dynamic game and the opposition scouts guys and the change in Heyward's approach could be dictated by how a guy is being pitched. We talk in here a lot about line-up order and things like that, but it really shouldn't have that large an effect on a player as it supposedly had on Heyward. You see the ball, you hit the ball. You don't take strikes simply for the sake of taking strikes. You find your pitch and you try to do something with it. If it's not there, you work the pitcher until it's there. I'm no hitting coach and situations dictate certain actions, but if there was a change in Heyward's approach, it likely had more to do with Heyward than his spot in the line-up. Frankly, I thought he should have hit 3rd or 5th, either before or after J. Upton.

I didn't read it close enough to see if it mentioned the beaning, which should be mentioned. I haven't watched as much as I used to, but I always saw Heyward's issue is that he's too far off the plate and tries to pull a lot of pitches on which he can get extension. For some reason he seems to get tied up inside, which is why he's a bit off the plate, but that makes him a bit vulnerable to stuff away.

Thanks for starting the thread. It will provide a place for on-going discussion of the Heyward deal and keep it from invading other threads (although because of ripple effects of the deal, it is appropriate to discuss it in conjunction with other moves).
 
Bottom line, Braves are stupid. Heyward was our most marketable player. We traded our most marketable player for Shelby Miller. Freeman has some charm, but Jason could have been a Derek Jeter type if his career clicked.

I hope he goes on to have a monstrous career and we look dumb. We deserve it, we really do, I could get trading Justin, I could get trading Gattis, though I wouldn't have done either, but trading Jason was really dumb. Only redeeming thing that may happen is maybe we'll luck into him testing FA and us being the highest bidder, but I doubt it. Cards will extend him or he'll go to LA or NY or god forbid Philly.
 
yeezus said:
This is apparently being passed off as fact.
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It is fact. I don't know how many times I have to say this-- Jason wanted well north of $200m -- and north of $20m per year. There was a significant valuation gap. End of story.

You can choose to believe whatever you want-- but this is the fact. That, of course, does not mean people shouldn't be upset at losing Heyward, that he's not an excellent player, that the FO didn't like him, etc. I cringed when I first saw the news as well. However after hearing more about what went down behind the scenes, there was nothing the Braves could have done to bridge the gap between the player's expectations and the team's limitations. You have every right to argue that the return wasn't enough, or the merits behind keeping Jason and trading him mid-season 2015 or letting him walk for a pick, etc., but I defer to the FO and the scouts on their assessment of Miller and Jenkins. They're far better evaluators than you or I. What I do know is that money was discussed with Casey/Excel, and it ended cordially but with a clear message that the parties were mountains apart.
 
ramadon101 said:
It is fact. I don't know how many times I have to say this-- Jason wanted well north of $200m -- and north of $20m per year. There was a significant valuation gap. End of story.

You can choose to believe whatever you want-- but this is the fact. That, of course, does not mean people shouldn't be upset at losing Heyward, that he's not an excellent player, that the FO didn't like him, etc. I cringed when I first saw the news as well. However after hearing more about what went down behind the scenes, there was nothing the Braves could have done to bridge the gap between the player's expectations and the team's limitations. You have every right to argue that the return wasn't enough, or the merits behind keeping Jason and trading him mid-season 2015 or letting him walk for a pick, etc., but I defer to the FO and the scouts on their assessment of Miller and Jenkins. They're far better evaluators than you or I. What I do know is that money was discussed with Casey/Excel, and it ended cordially but with a clear message that the parties were mountains apart.
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What does it matter what Jason wants? Ervin Santana wanted a 5 year deal last offseason and he had to settle for a 1 year deal or any countless other cases of a player wanting something and not getting it. The point is, or at least MY point is, why not offer him a contract? It makes ZERO sense and is a horrible way to run a business. A player can't say yes or no if there is no offer made.
 
BRule said:
What does it matter what Jason wants? Ervin Santana wanted a 5 year deal last offseason and he had to settle for a 1 year deal or any countless other cases of a player wanting something and not getting it. The point is, or at least MY point is, why not offer him a contract? It makes ZERO sense and is a horrible way to run a business. A player can't say yes or no if there is no offer made.
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What is the point of getting a player's expectations from their agent and then offering them a contract extremely lower than what they are looking for? Makes no sense. It's clear that if he wasn't getting what they were looking for, testing free agency was his prerogative.
 
NYCBrave said:
What is the point of getting a player's expectations from their agent and then offering them a contract extremely lower than what they are looking for? Makes no sense. It's clear that if he wasn't getting what they were looking for, testing free agency was his prerogative.
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I can walk in and tell my boss I want a 15% raise, doesn't mean I'm going to get it.

Also, apparently you aren't familiar with "negotiating" it's a common practice, especially in the sports realm.
 
BRule said:
I can walk in and tell my boss I want a 15% raise, doesn't mean I'm going to get it.

Also, apparently you aren't familiar with "negotiating" it's a common practice, especially in the sports realm.
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1) Asking for that could also potentially get you fired depending on your boss, department head &

2) it was just too risky potentially tying that much money up in one player that has yet to reach his perceived potential, especially with so much already tied up in dead weight in BJ, Uggla, CJ, etc (over 30%) and risking losing him for nothing more than a draft pick that may or may not pan out in the future if he decides to leave. Hart, and the Braves brass, thought and believed that there was no way that bridge was going to be closed or get closer and wasn't willing to take that chance, and decided to move on

Look,....I'm dissappointed as any in losing Heyward, he's one of my favorites and I think he will thrive in St. Louis, but I also understand the notion and where the FO and the Braves stand and risk associated with keeping the roster together and losing him for basically nothing....and compound that with the fact that we need to field a competitive team in 2017 going into the new stadium made things even more difficult.

That decesion wouldn't have been so difficult to make, if our previous GM didn't spend like a drunk sailor on risky investments, tying up a good portion of working capital that could have been used on more secure investments and keeping a guy like Heyward long-term more likely and economically feasiable in a tight budget.

As far as Heyward, I've always thought the best spot in the lineup for him long-term was exactly where Bobby had him his first year....which was the 2 hole where his entire game (OBP, speed, and power) could be fully utilized to the max if Wren and the Braves would have gone for more of a prototypical leadoff guy in center instead of BJ along with surronding him with the best true hitter in the 3rd spot in Freeman, along with the power of Justin, Gattis, McCann, etc., etc....to fill out the middle of the order and go forward that way.

Of course we didn't see much of that after Chipper retired primarily because 1) we didn't have another option that was a viable and capable one at the leadoff position, and 2) our manager refused to bat two lefties back to back.
 
BRule said:
I can walk in and tell my boss I want a 15% raise, doesn't mean I'm going to get it.

Also, apparently you aren't familiar with "negotiating" it's a common practice, especially in the sports realm.
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It doesn't, and how would it make you feel when he told you flat out that you didn't earn that inflated raise with your passed years performance?

All the while you were looking at a bidding war between all 32 teams at the conclusion of this coming year to get you that raise you feel like you deserved? Why would you consider what you believe is a lesser offer- a year out from the bidding war? What sense would that make for you?

I feel like the Braves would have made a top dollar offer had Heyward hit 280\355\450 this passed year. Sucks he didn't, but it is what it is.

The Braves financially cannot pay top dollar simply for potential. The sooner you realize that, the better off you will be.

I feel like the only way you don't get this is you are trolling us all.
 
They wouldn't be paying for potential they would be paying for production. Those that disagree (and maybe the Braves FO think they same way) just don't value defense they way some do. Unfortunatley a lot of teams do believe in defensive statistics and we will see that when Heyward brings in a huge contract.
 
thewupk said:
They wouldn't be paying for potential they would be paying for production. Those that disagree (and maybe the Braves FO think they same way) just don't value defense they way some do. Unfortunatley a lot of teams do believe in defensive statistics and we will see that when Heyward brings in a huge contract.
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Sure but as the contract ages and the defense fades with nicks and bumps... you are over paying the bejesus out of a 750 ops player for the last half of that deal that isn't Andrew Jones out there.

Not a situation the Braves can afford to be in.
 
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