Post Post-Heyward Discussion Here.

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nsacpi said:
Which do you think is more valuable? Elite right fielder or same hitter above average but not elite CF? Not a trick question. Just curious about how you would evaluate something like that.
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Depends on what the rest of the team looks like.
 
nsacpi said:
Which do you think is more valuable? Elite right fielder or same hitter above average but not elite CF? Not a trick question. Just curious about how you would evaluate something like that.
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It's hard to say but the way fWAR works is that the player is supposed to have about the same WAR regardless of where he plays. Jason's defense overall would take a hit by going to center but he also wouldn't get hit with the positional ranking of RF which takes some value away. It's hard to say if that's really accurate unless a player goes out and does that to see about how close it is. Personally I would take the above average defense in center.
 
nsacpi said:
Which do you think is more valuable? Elite right fielder or same hitter above average but not elite CF? Not a trick question. Just curious about how you would evaluate something like that.
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I'd like to weigh in on this, 'cause it might get to the crux of the WAR debate.

I want that player in CF, because I want him in the toughest position he can handle competently. I can then fill the easier defensive spot with another hitter because I can easier maximize my offense having found a superior hitter who can handle the tougher position.

A WAR disciple would want him in RF because he will maximize his value that way with defense. Then he'll turn around and find a relatively high dWAR guy to cover CF.

That guy and that measure isn't as important to me. I don't think defense is as important as the WAR measure seems to say it is, particularly in the corner outfield.

I first read that theory in about 1990 in a Bill James baseball annual. It resonated for me then and continues to do so.
 
2014 was a rough year for the Braves. The offseason has not gotten off to a banner start, IMO. Trading Heyward for Shelby Miller may prove to have been the best long-run move available, but right now it tastes like some nasty-ass medicine. My outlook for 2015: I'm going to watch the games, root for the Braves, and cheer for Shelby Miller and Nick Markakis, of course. Markakis is going to be a decent ballplayer. I don't think that his signing was a good deal, but it isn't his fault that he's replacing my favorite player. Good on you, Nick.

However, I can't say that I love the Braves, or believe in the Braves, as much as I did before this offseason. I feel like we're being subjected to some sleight of hand since the restoration of the ancien regime. I look at them and want to see design, and foresight, a plan . . . and right now I just see a couple of grifters trying to get the audience's eyes focused somewhere else. They purged the great villian, ran his family out of town, all the while encouraging us to pay no attention to the man (men) behind the curtain. This can change, of course. I hope that it does. I have faith that it can. If the player development pipeline gets patched up, it'll change my opinion significantly, but only time will tell that. Right now, I have a bad taste in my mouth. If you have a different opinion about this team, its direction, or the Heyward deal, you're certainly entitled to air it and to defend it. We're on the same side. Just consider thinking twice before cracking on other posters for not just shutting up and getting on with life. If you don't care to read it, just don't read it, ok?

I thought that we should have extent Heyward. Last year, this year, two years ago. He could've—should've—been the face of the franchise. I haven't really felt this way when other favorites have left . . . Maddux being a possible exception. I wanted Greg to retire as a Brave, but it was obvious at the time that his best years were behind him and it wasn't going to happen. Javy, Andruw, Glavine (who signed a ball for me when I was in 5th grade, whom I watched from the RF seats in the '95 series)—even the other guys I liked and felt attached to, I understood the rationale when they left. I can't think of a time when we waved goodbye to a young player in his prime like this.

So, yeah. I'm not over it. Jason Heyward was my favorite Brave. He was my dad's, too. The pater and I have had a prickly and often strained relationship for much of my adult life, but baseball was our common language. When it's hard to talk about other stuff, it's easy to start a conversation with "whoa, did you see JHey run down that ball in the gap last night? Saved a triple" or pop off a text—"1st to home on a 2B? Heyward=automatic"—when we haven't talked in weeks. Heyward is my dad's favorite player, and mine, and my son's. It matters to me. It's not about DRS or WAR or AAV. Those things matter—to the extent that they matter at all—when I'm bull****ting on this board. Watching the game is something different: more emotional, sometimes transcendent. For me, it was a pure joy to watch Jason play baseball, to marvel at what he was and to think about what he could be.

I took my then-five-year-old son to his first game in 2013, during the NLDS. All he could talk about before, during, and after, was seeing Jason Heyward. As much of a diehard fan as I've been for 30+ years, the only pieces of Braves memorabilia in the house are a signed ball (Tommy Hanson, Yunel Escobar, Todd Redman, and Eddie Perez . . . what a score, right?), a tomahawk coffee mug, and a tiny #22 jersey that I bought that day for my son, and that he slept in that night. Skin color doesn't play much of a part in my baseball calculus, but I can't say that it doesn't matter in this case. My son is brown, and as much I like to think that that fact matters less and less in our world, I always thought it was great for him to have a baseball hero who looks a bit like him. A hard worker, a team player, a humble, steady guy—even if you are skeptical of the idea of pro athletes as role models (and who isn't?), you could do a hell of a lot worse than to tell your son "Be like Jason." Work hard. Always be gracious. Do your best. Be like Jason Heyward.

This is maudlin and ridiculous, in the larger scheme of things. The Braves are going to be fine. Jason Heyward is going to make a ton of money playing baseball somewhere else. My family is going to be fine. But for me, for my family, our favorite player was more than a guy who played a game between two chalk stripes. He was a touchstone for something greater, for our love of the game, for our love of each other, even. No, I'm not over it. Don't ask me to be just yet.
 
Julio3000 said:
2014 was a rough year for the Braves. The offseason has not gotten off to a banner start, IMO. Trading Heyward for Shelby Miller may prove to have been the best long-run move available, but right now it tastes like some nasty-ass medicine. My outlook for 2015: I'm going to watch the games, root for the Braves, and cheer for Shelby Miller and Nick Markakis, of course. Markakis is going to be a decent ballplayer. I don't think that his signing was a good deal, but it isn't his fault that he's replacing my favorite player. Good on you, Nick.

However, I can't say that I love the Braves, or believe in the Braves, as much as I did before this offseason. I feel like we're being subjected to some sleight of hand since the restoration of the ancien regime. I look at them and want to see design, and foresight, a plan . . . and right now I just see a couple of grifters trying to get the audience's eyes focused somewhere else. They purged the great villian, ran his family out of town, all the while encouraging us to pay no attention to the man (men) behind the curtain. This can change, of course. I hope that it does. I have faith that it can. If the player development pipeline gets patched up, it'll change my opinion significantly, but only time will tell that. Right now, I have a bad taste in my mouth. If you have a different opinion about this team, its direction, or the Heyward deal, you're certainly entitled to air it and to defend it. We're on the same side. Just consider thinking twice before cracking on other posters for not just shutting up and getting on with life. If you don't care to read it, just don't read it, ok?

I thought that we should have extent Heyward. Last year, this year, two years ago. He could've—should've—been the face of the franchise. I haven't really felt this way when other favorites have left . . . Maddux being a possible exception. I wanted Greg to retire as a Brave, but it was obvious at the time that his best years were behind him and it wasn't going to happen. Javy, Andruw, Glavine (who signed a ball for me when I was in 5th grade, whom I watched from the RF seats in the '95 series)—even the other guys I liked and felt attached to, I understood the rationale when they left. I can't think of a time when we waved goodbye to a young player in his prime like this.

So, yeah. I'm not over it. Jason Heyward was my favorite Brave. He was my dad's, too. The pater and I have had a prickly and often strained relationship for much of my adult life, but baseball was our common language. When it's hard to talk about other stuff, it's easy to start a conversation with "whoa, did you see JHey run down that ball in the gap last night? Saved a triple" or pop off a text—"1st to home on a 2B? Heyward=automatic"—when we haven't talked in weeks. Heyward is my dad's favorite player, and mine, and my son's. It matters to me. It's not about DRS or WAR or AAV. Those things matter—to the extent that they matter at all—when I'm bull****ting on this board. Watching the game is something different: more emotional, sometimes transcendent. For me, it was a pure joy to watch Jason play baseball, to marvel at what he was and to think about what he could be.

I took my then-five-year-old son to his first game in 2013, during the NLDS. All he could talk about before, during, and after, was seeing Jason Heyward. As much of a diehard fan as I've been for 30+ years, the only pieces of Braves memorabilia in the house are a signed ball (Tommy Hanson, Yunel Escobar, Todd Redman, and Eddie Perez . . . what a score, right?), a tomahawk coffee mug, and a tiny #22 jersey that I bought that day for my son, and that he slept in that night. Skin color doesn't play much of a part in my baseball calculus, but I can't say that it doesn't matter in this case. My son is brown, and as much I like to think that that fact matters less and less in our world, I always thought it was great for him to have a baseball hero who looks a bit like him. A hard worker, a team player, a humble, steady guy—even if you are skeptical of the idea of pro athletes as role models (and who isn't?), you could do a hell of a lot worse than to tell your son "Be like Jason." Work hard. Always be gracious. Do your best. Be like Jason Heyward.

This is maudlin and ridiculous, in the larger scheme of things. The Braves are going to be fine. Jason Heyward is going to make a ton of money playing baseball somewhere else. My family is going to be fine. But for me, for my family, our favorite player was more than a guy who played a game between two chalk stripes. He was a touchstone for something greater, for our love of the game, for our love of each other, even. No, I'm not over it. Don't ask me to be just yet.
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I really do hope that you make money off your writing skill because if you don't you should change professions and write fulltime.
 
PS—the poor kid's second favorite player is Justin Upton. So . . .

Saving up for that Taijuan Walker jersey.
 
Thanks for sharing that, Julio. I feel ya. I'm a little older, as is my son, and I can jUst imagine what we'd have done if they'd traded Chipper. As it is, I'm squirreling away FF miles, planning our pilgrimage to Cooperstown in a couple of years.

One thing, though. I have a hard time believing any of the Braves decision makers, flawed though they may be, did not hold Jason in high esteem - certainly approximating Freddie. And I think if Casey had made his interest clear, Jason would still be a Brave. Chip took less than market twice and renegotiated twice in order to help them out and to retire a Brave. I do not get the same sense with Jason and I wish I did. Race doesn't really enter my calculus either, but certainly the Johns know that metro Atlanta is the home of more middle class black people than any city in the world, and it would've been a great connection with the city to have him. Hell, it would have been great to have him regardless. But I'm sorry for you and everyone else who had a special bond with him. It sucks.
 
GovClintonTyree said:
Thanks for sharing that, Julio. I feel ya. I'm a little older, as is my son, and I can jUst imagine what we'd have done if they'd traded Chipper. As it is, I'm squirreling away FF miles, planning our pilgrimage to Cooperstown in a couple of years.

One thing, though. I have a hard time believing any of the Braves decision makers, flawed though they may be, did not hold Jason in high esteem - certainly approximating Freddie. And I think if Casey had made that clear, Jason would still be a Brave. Chip took less than market twice and renegotiated twice in order to help them out and to retire a Brave. I do not get the same sense with Jason and I wish I did. Race doesn't really enter my calculus either, but certainly the Johns know that metro Atlanta is the home of more middle class black people than any city in the world, and it would've been a great connection with the city to have him. Hell, it would have been great to have him regardless. But I'm sorry for you and everyone else who had a special bond with him. It sucks.
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I don't disagree at all. It seems pretty clear in retrospect that a contract wasn't going to happen this year. I don't think there was any shady business or offense given on the part of the FO. Still, I feel like it was a missed opportunity, wherever the responsibility ultimately lies.
 
Tapate50 said:
Maybe it's the booze talkin but this place is friggin great.
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Freakin fireball whiskey and beer agrees with you. Great post Julio but.......
I don't know how to respond in a negative way yet. Heyward was my favorite Brave. Howevah.......
 
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