Really Being Pro-Life

I agree with jpx here. And I think I've probably travelled a similar arc in my consideration of the issue.

I've voted for anti-abortion politicians on occasions when I think the opposing candidate is manifestly unqualified. I'd like to think that, in some small way, there's value in that. Hell, one time I voted in a primary for a candidate whom, years before, I'd had an adversarial exchange with on the subject of abortion during a student forum. I know Evangelical Christians (some of them are my family) with whom I agree on issues of social and economic justice but disagree with about abortion access. I'd rather try to build bridges there than walls.

I see a world which accepts the aforementioned binary as one that necessitates a vote for any scoundrel or grifter who checks the "correct" box on that issue, and that just doesn't seem like a healthy place for civil society.
 
I do find myself leaning left on many social issues (even some fiscal ones as well), but the abortion issue is one I cannot morally justify for myself. Don’t get me wrong, I fully understand if others view the issue differently.

With that said, I really appreciate what jpx said. The goal should be to bring the abortion number to zero. Shockingly, this is somehow lost in the debate. You would think that this goal would serve as suitable enough middle ground that both sides could reach some sort of consensus.
 
PBirth Control and Safe Sex aren’t accepted by a lot of those on that side of the debate. It’s abstinence or bust.

So that doesn’t help either.
 
BedellBrave said:
It would be for 57. He has approved infanticide here before.
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By that strict definition we could apply that bar to Flint Michigan where infants were left without drinking water, some for years and Puerto Rico where 1/3 of the island still without electricity - utility.
Foster care in some cases, adoption in some cases, systemic poverty ... we could go on

Infanticide is a big word . I don't think it applies to accepting that a woman has the right to exercise her conscience the way she chooses.
That fetus is a part of her body and is not up to outsiders to tell her how to decide.
You once accused Obama of infanticide for abstaining a vote. I would be surprised to learn BO ever had an abortion or driven anyone to a clinic or advised any one to that surgery.

"approve infanticide" . Outside of Idi Amin and people of that ilk, what a thing to say to someone.
How's about we disagree on the topic of women's rights.
If not mistaken your stance on contraception is that it too is infanticide ?

To the above point, by name calling and shaming women -- what end does that produce.
Educate educate educate

For the record I have never had an abortion or driven a woman to a clinic for an abortion nor have I ever advised any one to have an abortion.
To my knowledge no woman in my family has had an abortion quite the opposite is the case

Like I said, infanticide is a big word.
 
57Brave said:
By that strict definition we could apply that bar to Flint Michigan where infants were left without drinking water, some for years and Puerto Rico where 1/3 of the island still without electricity - utility.
Foster care in some cases, adoption in some cases, systemic poverty ... we could go on

Infanticide is a big word . I don't think it applies to accepting that a woman has the right to exercise her conscience the way she chooses.
That fetus is a part of her body and is not up to outsiders to tell her how to decide.
You once accused Obama of infanticide for abstaining a vote. I would be surprised to learn BO ever had an abortion or driven anyone to a clinic or advised any one to that surgery.

"approve infanticide" . Outside of Idi Amin and people of that ilk, what a thing to say to someone.
How's about we disagree on the topic of women's rights.
If not mistaken your stance on contraception is that it too is infanticide ?

To the above point, by name calling and shaming women -- what end does that produce.
Educate educate educate

For the record I have never had an abortion or driven a woman to a clinic for an abortion nor have I ever advised any one to have an abortion.
To my knowledge no woman in my family has had an abortion quite the opposite is the case

Like I said, infanticide is a big word.
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You can add all that you want 57, but you said it was legitimate to kill the newborn if the mother so chose. Please say that you were wrong to go that far. We all misstate things particularly when we are arguing. I hope that's all that it is. As AA says, own it. And as I ask, confess and repent.

But I am glad you've gone ahead and added other things because that's the point of my OP. Being pro-life is something that should effect not only the objects of our concern but the variety of our thoughts, words, and actions - or lack thereof. Which brings me to my own repentance. I have often responded to you in a belittling way crossing a line from disagreeing with your content/argument with snark at your person. Forgive me, my neighbor. It's not the way I want to be treated...
 
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You asked about contraception. I don't believe that contraception is ever infanticide (using the term to mean the intentional taking of the life of a newborn/infant). Some forms of birth control are forms of abortion in that they destroy a developing child after conception. I am by conviction opposed to the use of these.
 
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I assume anyone who is pro choice due to women having control of their own body, also would fully support full drug legalization, prostitution, suicide, and the liberty to not have health insurance.

Right?
 
Btw, I am grateful for where several of you are. I really am. It's what I pray for - getting to the place where it hurts us seeing abortion stories celebrated instead of lamented (not sure if I've ever heard a d story of PP or others celebrating a woman who comes in for counseling to them who chooses not to abort) - including lamenting all that might cause a woman to choose such a path of having the child's life ended who is within her womb. I know that for many on my side there's been healthy (and often well placed) skepticism of the way Bill Clinton use to speak of the matter - but whether the speech was sincere or not, if that sort of language could become more commonplace on the other side of the aisle and that if on my side, there would be more of a realization that heart-changes are the key and not politics as much, then more progress I think can be made.

And the progress in lessening the number of abortions will come, imho, when we address a whole range of societal and personal weaknesses and evils....
 
sturg33 said:
I assume anyone who is pro choice due to women having control of their own body, also would fully support full drug legalization, prostitution, suicide, and the liberty to not have health insurance.

Right?
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It would seem that the logic ought to push them there - particularly as those choices have more to say about that person's own being instead of the being of another within them.
 
Was having a conversation with my boss and colleague the other day (both rabid feminists and pro-choice advocates).

As I was respectfully explaining why I am pro-life. My co-worker admitted to having an abortion. The reason? She was interviewing for a job and she didn't think she would get it if she was pregnant, so she terminated.

It took all I had in me to not call her pathetic. This is a person who has admitted to me having sex with over 200 guys.

Then she goes on this sob story about how difficult of a decision it was. But wait, earlier she said it's just a parasite - which is why it's OK.

So how can it be just a parasite AND a difficult decision?

The conversation was ended when they told me I'd never understand due to my "white male privilege"
 
BedellBrave said:
It would seem that the logic ought to push them there - particularly as those choices have more to say about that person's own being instead of the being of another within them.
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There are certain things that two differing groups can literally never agree on and while there are some left/right overlaps here I don't think it's just a political thing, though these days politics rears its ugly head in just about everything.

IMO:

Gun control advocates have a point about there being too many guns and they're too easy to acquire and that the NRA is literally nuts these days...................................................................BUT:
1.) Strict gun control folks can NEVER understand that all guns can never be collected and that criminals can never be in a position where they aren't able to get a gun since criminals don't care about breaking any law in the first place, therefore I have to have my right to own a gun for self protection.

Pro-Choice advocates have a point about women absolutely should have the right to control their own bodies and should never be forced to get/stay pregnant against their will, and those who argue that the guy can simply walk away from that situation but the woman is "stuck with the consequences, often alone and abandoned................................................................................................BUT:

2.) Pro-choice advocates cannot accept that the life inside them is "hooked up to" their body but is very much another life IMO, and in many cases (but not all) the law agrees with me and if the woman chose to have sex (yes, I don't like it but I have to place rape and incest and the mother's life in legitimate physical danger into another category) without using some type of the 900 different birth control options out there then to me they want to justify all choices and eliminate all consequences for those choices. I do not judge the person for this choice since I have no right to judge any person, but to me the choice to end a life, any life, even the life of Charles Manson or Osama bin Laden, is a VERY serious matter and these days isn't treated as such.

There just isn't any way the two sides in these two arguments are EVER going to agree, I've accepted that and I don't hold any hate or judgement of those in the other group, I still feel like I have the right to feel the way I do without their hate and judgement.

Just my 2 cents worth.
 
Oklahomahawk said:
There are certain things that two differing groups can literally never agree on and while there are some left/right overlaps here I don't think it's just a political thing, though these days politics rears its ugly head in just about everything.

IMO:

Gun control advocates have a point about there being too many guns and they're too easy to acquire and that the NRA is literally nuts these days...................................................................BUT:
1.) Strict gun control folks can NEVER understand that all guns can never be collected and that criminals can never be in a position where they aren't able to get a gun since criminals don't care about breaking any law in the first place, therefore I have to have my right to own a gun for self protection.

Pro-Choice advocates have a point about women absolutely should have the right to control their own bodies and should never be forced to get/stay pregnant against their will, and those who argue that the guy can simply walk away from that situation but the woman is "stuck with the consequences, often alone and abandoned................................................................................................BUT:

2.) Pro-choice advocates cannot accept that the life inside them is "hooked up to" their body but is very much another life IMO, and in many cases (but not all) the law agrees with me and if the woman chose to have sex (yes, I don't like it but I have to place rape and incest and the mother's life in legitimate physical danger into another category) without using some type of the 900 different birth control options out there then to me they want to justify all choices and eliminate all consequences for those choices. I do not judge the person for this choice since I have no right to judge any person, but to me the choice to end a life, any life, even the life of Charles Manson or Osama bin Laden, is a VERY serious matter and these days isn't treated as such.

There just isn't any way the two sides in these two arguments are EVER going to agree, I've accepted that and I don't hold any hate or judgement of those in the other group, I still feel like I have the right to feel the way I do without their hate and judgement.

Just my 2 cents worth.
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Tremendous post.
 
BedellBrave said:
You asked about contraception. I don't believe that contraception is ever infanticide (using the term to me the intentional taking of the life of a newborn/infant). Some forms of birth control are forms of abortion in that they destroy a developing child after conception. I am by conviction opposed to the use of these.
Click to expand...

I want to tag along on this. When people ask if I support birth control, I answer no for exactly this reason. By "birth control", most people mean some type of abortifacient. My feelings on contraceptives are completely different. I do not support government funding of birth control in any way, but I would be quite happy to see government money go to funding free condom dispensers in every bar and nightclub in the US. I'm not saying I agree with premarital sex, but I would much rather prevent a pregnancy than end one. If dropping condoms from the sky will save an unborn life, then it's worth doing.
 
sturg33 said:
Was having a conversation with my boss and colleague the other day (both rabid feminists and pro-choice advocates).

As I was respectfully explaining why I am pro-life. My co-worker admitted to having an abortion. The reason? She was interviewing for a job and she didn't think she would get it if she was pregnant, so she terminated.

It took all I had in me to not call her pathetic. This is a person who has admitted to me having sex with over 200 guys.

Then she goes on this sob story about how difficult of a decision it was. But wait, earlier she said it's just a parasite - which is why it's OK.

So how can it be just a parasite AND a difficult decision?

The conversation was ended when they told me I'd never understand due to my "white male privilege"
Click to expand...

So incredibly heart-wrenching...
 
It's certainly a catch-22. I morally cannot and will not support abortion. But I fully realize that if you remove abortion clinics it will not stop abortions. The same way with gun control or prohibition, people who want to get them will find a way to get them, normally in a very unsafe manner. Might as well have a safe place for them to go.
 
sturg33 said:
I assume anyone who is pro choice due to women having control of their own body, also would fully support full drug legalization, prostitution, suicide, and the liberty to not have health insurance.

Right?
Click to expand...

Yes to all of the above. I'm probably the exception on that though.

I don't understand why some pro-life people care so much about the baby before it's born but then don't give a **** about it after it is born? They're for the death penalty or wanting to eliminate social programs that help the less fortunate that do have babies. I'm against the death penalty, for social programs that help the less fortunate and pro-choice with a personal belief of pro-life. I would prefer we didn't have abortions but at the same time, it isn't my body so I don't feel I should tell someone else how to live their life.
 
But it isn't her body either...the developing child is in her body and dependent upon her.

Most pro-lifers I know aren't the types you mention. I pastor a church full of adopted children and a congregation that is intimately involved in all manner of local, regional, and international charities. It's just life for so many of them...
 
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