Braves1976
It's OVER 5,000!
Just by memory, I remember Philly having some interest in him too and then we came in blowing away their offer or potential offer.
Rosenthal: Braves players frustrated with Fredi; he has "lost the clubhouse"
- Thread starter dak
- Start date
Just by memory, I remember Philly having some interest in him too and then we came in blowing away their offer or potential offer.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
There were a couple of teams in play IIRC. Maybe the Mets, too? My point in response to Knucksie's post was that Bourn was better than Boss but still both expensive and not very good in retrospect.
My recollection was that the obvious options were BJ, Bourn, and either Span or Revere (and as it turned out, both).
FW made a decisive move for the biggest name on the board. Cleveland ended up disappointed with Mike Bourn. The Nats, in retrospect, made the shrewdest move, getting three cheap years of Span for a middling pitching prospect.
My recollection was that the obvious options were BJ, Bourn, and either Span or Revere (and as it turned out, both).
FW made a decisive move for the biggest name on the board. Cleveland ended up disappointed with Mike Bourn. The Nats, in retrospect, made the shrewdest move, getting three cheap years of Span for a middling pitching prospect.
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
I never said the Braves were the only team effected. If you read my post you quoted, the second part of the first sentence addresses that.
As far as Huddy goes, you're right, he's way better than Beachy, Medlen, or Hanson. I wasn't ****ting on Hudson, my point was Hudson had poor mechanics. Remember he had back issues and other injury issues with us. That had to do with his mechanics. Smallish pitcher who uses pretty violent mechanics to add movement to his pitches. Obviously a great pitcher. One of the top 20 of his generation. And that's baking in time for guys like Verlander, Greinke, Kershaw, and Hamels to finish their careers. Guy is awesome and is a borderline (read borderline) Hall of Fame Candidate.
A little bit of a ridiculous statement IMO, but if so, so what? Frank Wren and his group chose to sign B. J./Melvin and let Bourn leave. What does that have to do with the present front office???
Bourn, Swisher, and the money were acquired because they wanted CJ off the books before 2017 - it's that simple. I don't profess to having a clue why, maybe they planned to spend big to go after one of the "Aces" this winter and want to go after Joey Bats or Carlos Gomez after next season, who knows? All any of us can do is speculate, and those with the glass half-full attitude hope they'll make a couple big impact signings (that turn out better than B. J./Melvin or the Uggla and CJ extensions)..
Now many people like to *itch when they mention the fact that that leaves less financial flexibility this winter - of course, many of those same posters will then turn around and point out that Freeman's deal is the largest in franchise history and that they're of the opinion (although they state it as fact) that the organization will never give someone a $200 million contract. Current commitments put them in the ~$84 million range, so if $120 million is indeed the "cap", they can spend $35 million this winter even WITH the Maybin, Swisher, and Bourn contracts on the books.
If you honestly believe (not you specifically Knucksie - just making the point) that they're not willing to spend big on a Price/Greinke/whomever, what in the *ell difference does it make if they're paying those three??? You believe they'll just sign "also-rans" regardless of how much flexibility they have. It's always a bit of a default point, but if you truly don't believe they'd pay market value for an "Ace", how can you possibly believe that they'd have shelled out $25 million per in a J-Up or Heyward extension? That kinda completely contradicts your argument, doesn't it???.
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
Wren should have traded J.R. Graham for Denard Span and never entered the Melvin Sweepstakes.
Span or Revere were there for the taking at a much lower cost. It's not that they are/were necessarily better players than Melvin at the time of the decision, but they would have provided a lot more payroll flexibility.
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
One of the uses of a farm system is to limit the risks you take in big FA contracts. I think the situation with respect to center three off-seasons ago is exhibit A of why you want to consider both the trade route and FA route for filling needs. It might seem that the FA is less costly because you are not giving up a prospect, but it is also often more risky because of length and size of contract.
dak
Well-known member
For me, the type of non-injury decline that Melvin Upton showed with Atlanta was hard to anticipate. For that reason, I don't judge Wren as harshly on this move as most. Check out these fWAR numbers on Melvin . . .
3 years prior to FA with TB (ages 26 - 28). Healthy, and consistently productive.
2010: 3.8 fWAR
2011: 3.7 fWAR
2012: 3.3 fWAR
Then with Braves. Healthy, and production absolutely falls off a cliff starting at age 29.
2013: -0.6 fWAR
2014: 0.3 fWAR
BTW, Melvin doing a solid job for SD. SSS, but from an fWAR perspective he's easily outperforming Cameron Maybin.
You read too far into the statement. The best (and most extreme) example of what my post was intended happened in hockey. The Flyers drafted Peter Forsberg. They got caught up in all the hype surrounding Lindros. Fans of the sport know everything that happened. Forsberg was near the end of the trail, and the Flyers signed him to a FA contract. It was admitting "we shouldn't have let you go..."
As for the specifics, doubt that Swisher was somebody who the Braves top brass gave a whiff about, but he had to be included to even out the funds. As for the other stuff, nobody's ever witnessed me speculate that they might be major players for an ace. As for the "bring Justin/Jason back" chorus, it's received nothing but mockery from my end.
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
My main point is that we were spending money that could have been used elsewhere. We can slice and dice Melvin's decline any way we want, but Wren bid against himself and went about $2 MM AAV over what Upton was supposedly being offered by other franchises. I think Wren believed Melvin was going to be a bigger contributor than what he had been in Tampa Bay, thus justifying the expenditure. I just wouldn't have gone that high for a guy who had never really been a core player in Tampa Bay.
It's neither here nor there, but IIRC the Braves were players for both Span and Revere initally but apparently didn't make offers that were competitive enough (which seems hard to believe given what they were ultimately acquired for). This lends some credence to the theory that when Wren knew had access to money he let it burn a hole in his pocket, so to speak, and desired BJ Upton all along -- perhaps also because he also knew of Justin's availability and had that particular grand design in mind.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
That's kinda what I've always assumed. Carries even more weight if you think he was targeting Justin all along.
Cut to Frank Wren, as Scooby-Doo villian: "And it would have worked, too..."
Yeah. It's only been half a season but his production in SD is only a little below what he was doing in Tampa the last 3 years. It's really remarkable.
yeezus
It's OVER 5,000!
So why? Why did he have to come to Atlanta and be the worst regular in the league? It like, sucks.
It's the Braves way. From Melky to McClouth to Melvin to Uggla. Braves have a long list of good hitters that come to Atlanta and die.
GovClintonTyree
<B>Vencer a Los Doyers</B>
Zito, your assertion that virtually every pitcher who gets hurt has bad mechanics is absurd.
How do you suppose a small but great athlete like Medlen or Hudson throws over 90 miles an hour? It is a violent unnatural motion, repeated over and over for years. Decades.
Even pitchers with great mechanics get hurt. And Tim Hudson has great mechanics. He throws eight pitches, threw 94 when he came up and can repeatedly hit a spot 60 feet away with any of them. He's incorporated an impossibly long stride into his delivery for an additional 8-10 mph.
Miraculous, really.
The only thing you know about good pitching mechanics is you didn't have them.
GovClintonTyree
<B>Vencer a Los Doyers</B>
It sucks. I've been wondering about this for a long time.
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
Yeah, he's so useful that some guy named Jankowski has been the starting CF in San Diego for the last three weeks. Melvin is the highest-paid 4th OF in baseball. His increased production may well because he is being "spotted" and is no longer viewed as an everyday player.