Russell Rant

Hawk said:
Without getting into much detail, I've been practicing sexual taoism for the past 6 months. The effects have been nothing short of profound, but I'd lying if I said that certain aspects hadn't been agonizing.

I challenge anybody who doesn't think that porn is addictive to try take a break from it -- and masturbation -- for one month.
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How old are you Hawk? Just curious. At 21 I might not be able to. Now, I could do a month without even blinking.

And I've read the nofap stuff and believe that porn is bad for some people. Just like anything....sports are bad for some people bc they get too engaged in it.
 
I'm not so sure what's silly about seeking not to objectify someone else merely for my fleeting pleasure.

I'm also not sure why we can't rationally consider the damage that the porn industry causes.

The Russell video, interestingly - at least to me, dealt with all manner of issues and not from an overtly Christian vantage point, but rather one of human flourishing. Yet, you guys revert to a critique of my faith. That's okay of course, have at it.

It would be nice though if you'd at least for a moment or two, consider that maybe your own view of the matter is worthy of reconsideration.

I also don't quite get why you have got to have some ranking of cultural problems in order to talk honestly about one on that list. Why is that?

Is it because this strikes close to home and you don't want to think about any consequences to your own choices?

Notice, few of you - if any - want to actually talk about it as a problem at all. Or want to consider that it can be (I'd say is) exploitive, that it turns a person into merely an object, that it presents a less than realistic portrayal of what most people are (and subsequently can have damaging effects upon human relationships), and might be connected with nefarious activities (like human trafficking).

It is telling to me, that virtually everyone here would prefer to critique me, than consider that there might be some issues with porn that aren't good. I think you want what you want and you don't want someone questioning whether that's a good thing or not.
 
zitothebrave said:
Sorry if you see it as a "strawman" but when you say things like "we've now idea where the pervasiveness of porn is going to take us as a culture. My only guess - nowhere good." you're inferring that porn is a leader in societal failures, I was being hyperbolic when I used my "root of all evil" phrase, but i figured a southern minister like yourself would appreciate a little fire and brimstone. But it was your language and overall tone which lead me down that path. I respect your opinion on the topic, there are certainly issues in the porn world. Especially where you have women essentially forced into doing porn as part of the sex trade. NOt to mention the other exploitive techniques which don't generate women money. I'm all for porn empowerment, but that's on the consumer. We live in a world where the market rules and there are people making money on the sex market illegally like on many other markets.
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Thanks z, for maybe the best acknowledgment of the problems from you guys.
 
yeezus said:
lol every argument with bedell comes down to him saying, "you believe this/know this to be true, but just don't want to admit it!"
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It doesn't. It's obvious that you don't think there's anything wrong with objectification and exploitation of other people for sexual pleasure.
 
"...In her book, Bunny Tales: Behind Closed Doors at the Playboy Mansion, Izabella St James, who was one of Hugh Hefner's former "official girlfriends", described sex with Hef. Hef, in his late 70s, would have sex twice a week, sometimes with four or more of his girlfriends at once, St James among them. He had novelty, variety, multiplicity and women willing to do what he pleased. At the end of the happy orgy, wrote St James, came "the grand finale: he masturbated while watching porn".

Here, the man who could actually live out the ultimate porn fantasy, with real porn stars, instead turned from their real flesh and touch, to the image on the screen. Now, I ask you, "what is wrong with this picture?"."

Link
 
"...Teenagers' brains are especially plastic. Now, 24/7 access to internet porn is laying the foundation of their sexual tastes. In Beeban Kidron's InRealLife, a gripping film about the effects of the internet on teenagers, a 15-year-old boy of extraordinary honesty and courage articulates what is going on in the lives of millions of teen boys. He shows her the porn images that excite him and his friends, and describes how they have moulded their "real life" sexual activity. He says: "You'd try out a girl and get a perfect image of what you've watched on the internet … you'd want her to be exactly like the one you saw on the internet … I'm highly thankful to whoever made these websites, and that they're free, but in other senses it's ruined the whole sense of love. It hurts me because I find now it's so hard for me to actually find a connection to a girl."

The sexual tastes and the romantic longings of these boys have become dissociated from each other. Meanwhile, the girls have "downloaded" on to them the expectation that they play roles written by pornographers. Once, porn was used by teens to explore, prepare and relieve sexual tension, in anticipation of a real sexual relationship. Today, it supplants it...."

Article certainly isn't coming from someone with my faith, but at least the author addresses some very real problems.
 
gilesfan said:
How old are you Hawk? Just curious. At 21 I might not be able to. Now, I could do a month without even blinking.

And I've read the nofap stuff and believe that porn is bad for some people. Just like anything....sports are bad for some people bc they get too engaged in it.
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I'm 27.

Frankly, I decided I needed to change my sexual habits because I was having too much unsafe sex with too many different people. I was scared my dick was going to fall off (or worse) ... so I decided to shake things up a little. I had abstinence shoved down my throat as a teenager, so instead of going down that road again I thought that attempting to modify what sex actually provided me was a worthy route to explore. I've learned a lot.

When you finally bust a nut, it will probably be amazing.
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I'm not refraining from all ejaculation (don't believe that's healthy) ... just removing it from a sex-based context and treating it as more of a necessary biological function.
 
Objectifying women (and men to a much lesser extent) is the purpose of porn. I think that's undeniable, and it's what it is for. It's to get people off.

Now, is this a bad thing? I am not so sure.

Porn is a vice...a drug. In moderation, it helps people get through this bull**** concept of life we as humans have created. However, there are people who do get addicted to it, and it can lead to the destruction of relationships. This is a very real concern. Some people also can't separate what is fantasy and reality and view what they have seen in pornography as the reality when it comes to women and men and how we should interact in society. Additionally, it does raise expectations that a normal relationship will not meet, and the amount of images, videos, etc that are available to you makes rubbing one out, rubbing one out on demand.

Should it be illegal? No. I think we should help those who are addicted, and continue to educate those about it and the, let's say, side effects. Porn is not the substitute for a healthy relationship, but there are some who will never have a relationship, don't want one, or just haven't come across one yet. I think people should be able to use it if they want to, and as long as it isn't harming others, then what they do with their lives is their prerogative. I would not support government intervention, or those who support government intervention.

This doesn't mean I approve of the objectification of women or men outside of porn. I do hope that one day that women will be viewed as equals (because they are), than as just sex objects, however, porn is just one of many markets that objectifies. Modeling, advertising, tv, movies, music, religion all objectify and or demean and are all readily available and influence our society much more so than porn. At least with porn, you know what you're getting into.

I think there were some interesting points about sports and the objectification of athletes. I am guilty of it. I don't view them as anything but a vessel for statistics that will or won't help the logo I am rooting for. Not exactly something I should be proud of. But it's also something corporations and governments do. We as people are nothing more than a statistic or a vote.

Bottom line is, we as humans have a lot more evolving to do. We have just barely emerged from the savagery of our beginnings. :pound::pound::pound:
 
Yea Bedell, I think those of us here who do watch porn even for a few minutes acknowledge there are bad things like the underground sex trade.

But thankfully most porn stars in this country do get paid a decent living, and not all get trapped in it permanently against their own free will. The ones who have been in it for a long time, male or female, do so because they just love the industry.

And my comment about you having a conflict of interest in America and Freedom has nothing to do with government regulation but rather you want to try and suppress actions/thoughts you disagree with, without having to pass legislation.

It's great to say you envision a world where we all treat each other decently, which I want as well. But it's the same argument I get with conservatives about unrestricted free market economics and welfare programs. People get screwed all the time because of the nature of the system, but it always comes back to "if you aren't fit enough to support yourself by however means, you don't deserve to make it in this country". We can't regulate some markets or allow government intervention because then it "stifles innovation and creativity of the free market". Porn is a multi-billion dollar industry like the NFL, provides a bunch of jobs. People just throwing their bodies out there for the entertainment of others.

I'd be more concerned of eliminating racism and xenophobia before I even think about porn. In it's own weird way, at least porn sort of narrows gaps of racism and xenophobia.

Again, this is not to say I don't think there are people who struggle with porn as an addiction just like some do with video games, internet usage, drugs, sports, gambling, etc. But IMHO porn is way way way on the bottom of the totem pole of problems with America.
 
BedellBrave said:
I thought liberals were against exploitation.
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Depends on how you view exploitation. We can go back to my sports argument. Ray Lewis was beloved by most hardcore football fans because of his "passion" and his "warrior" mentality on how he plays the game which is hit harder and harder. America loves the big hit from a safety on a receiver trying to catch a ball with the receiver being laid out on the ground.

If a female porn star wants to get paid to do something she was going to do if it was illegal anyways, more power to her. Porn stars have agents, not pimps and can choose what work and how much work they want to do. Some porn stars don't do gang bangs, some don't do anal, some don't do bondage, some just strictly do lesbian. If their hand were forced to do things they didn't want to do, I would be more on your side of outrage. But these are adults doing adult things.

For your question on children being exposed to porn, I grew up right in the beginning of the huge boom of internet streaming porn and it was very accessible if you knew how to obtain passwords over the web. I also grew up watching wrestling, which had more than it's fair share of objectification of men and women alike.

I do remember Jessica Simpson's dad saying on TV he told Jessica when she was younger "Don't have sex until you're married, once you do get married you can have sex until your face turns purple". Their family considered themselves pretty conservative. Yet in her prime years Jessica Simpson was arguably one of the more notable sex icons in this country including her being Daisy Duke. Is it possible growing up in a household that kept trying to suppress her sexuality only made her even more sexual once the chains broke free?
 
It's entertaining to watch liberals consistently claim that their belief system is a moral standard bearer ... then you read the beliefs professed in this thread.
 
Hawk said:
It's entertaining to watch liberals consistently claim that their belief system is a moral standard bearer ... then you read the beliefs professed in this thread.
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I think liberals (or the ones you're referring to) have a system that is open to adapting and changing opinions/standards with the times as deemed fit.

Whereas conservatives tend to appear to have a one size fits all type of value system.

I think being a liberal is a tougher balancing act which makes it at times makes it appear as if we have no conviction to any moral standard. I had an interesting conversation with an older conservative guy at the country club yesterday. We talked about homosexuality in the modern age. He said "we have gay members of our church, we love them. But I don't want them to impart their beliefs on me. Just because I'm biologically wired to want to sleep with every woman I see doesn't mean I have to. Same thing for gay guys, you don't have to sleep with other guys. They do it because it's cool."

Not sure how to take his comments but his mentality is interesting to me. You're ok with them being gay, but you're not ok with them being gay.
 
Hawk said:
It's entertaining to watch liberals consistently claim that their belief system is a moral standard bearer ... then you read the beliefs professed in this thread.
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Yep. What's particularly fascinating is the approval of objectifying people for their own sexual pleasure. For the folks suppose to be about treating people with worth and dignity, caring for the downtrodden, fighting for rights, etc., lambasting corporate-industrial evil, that just seems all out of whack to me. I'm having a hard time processing it.

I actually thought some of the more liberal guys would have been right here in this with me. Guess I got that one wrong.
 
Heywood said:
I think liberals (or the ones you're referring to) have a system that is open to adapting and changing opinions/standards with the times as deemed fit.

Whereas conservatives tend to appear to have a one size fits all type of value system.

I think being a liberal is a tougher balancing act which makes it at times makes it appear as if we have no conviction to any moral standard. I had an interesting conversation with an older conservative guy at the country club yesterday. We talked about homosexuality in the modern age. He said "we have gay members of our church, we love them. But I don't want them to impart their beliefs on me. Just because I'm biologically wired to want to sleep with every woman I see doesn't mean I have to. Same thing for gay guys, you don't have to sleep with other guys. They do it because it's cool."

Not sure how to take his comments but his mentality is interesting to me. You're ok with them being gay, but you're not ok with them being gay.
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Oh my, a liberal doesn't have a one size fits all morality? Really? Please tell me you jest.
 
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