Sanders is a better candidate than Clinton

[The Tariff King]

But Bernie staying positive and on message one could argue is what's helping him. If he buried Hillary early on, Maybe Biden jumps in and he's competing against a more liberal centrist which would be bad for him. Biden and Hillary both in the race would have been ideal for Bernie

No it wouldn't have been ideal.

Biden would have hurt Bernie more than anything. The race as it stands is Hillary vs. Maybe Bernie. It's her's to lose and she's been declining for a while. You forget she was up on Bernie by 50%+ at one point.

Biden is arguably just as liberal as Bernie (and more liberal than Hillary has been), just more electable since he's already vice president.

Biden would take votes away from Bernie, because of the fact he is more electable in the general. You forget Bernie is still a rather new phenomenon to casual voters in the last calendar year. Biden has been VP for 7 years so he's a household name.

Doesn't matter how much you believe the fairy tale that Biden in the race helps Bernie. He'd take votes away from Hillary voters, the ones who want a Dem to remain in the White House at any cost and establishment. And he'd take away some Bernie votes, the ones who aren't sold on Bernie's economic plan, but want a liberal in the white house again.

Bernie is benefitting right now from being "the other guy" in the race. People like options, which is why the Republican field always goes through cycles with different leaders or 2nd tier in the polls. If Biden were in the race it'd be Mrs. Bill Clinton vs. Mr. Vice President. Bernie would have been relegated to a Kucinich/Ron Paul outsider role. But since it's basically a two-horse race, Bernie gets the "I'm a Democrat, anybody but Hillary" vote. Where that vote would have been in favor of Biden because of his electability. And you know that Obama would endorse Biden because Biden would be the only one continuing his policies in the right direction.

 

[The Tariff King]

As 50Pound said, even the liberal in me has a hard time convincing myself I'd vote for Bernie.

And I love Bernie's enthusiasm and passion. No question of authenticity.

 

[zitothebrave]

Biden is not close to as liberal as Bernie

Biden is close to Obama, Hillary is to the right of Obama.

And look at poll numbers when Biden dropped out. Hillary Jumped 6% points, Bernie Jumped 5, and O'Malley 1.

When you look at general poll numbers, Bernie has been on a pretty steady rise over the last year. He did drop a bit when Biden fever was going strong, but not as much as Hillary. His drop was from 27 to 22 Hillary was from 55 to 40. Don't get me wrong, Biden hurts Bernie. But Hillary and Biden both being in the race puts all three really close to each other in the polls which works for Bernie.

 

[The Tariff King]

That's ridiculous Zeets.

Obama is a lot more liberal than you give him credit for, he just hasn't been able to do much on his agenda because of Congress. Bernie can say all of these things that people want, but if he gets elected without a Dem majority he's going to be just as stuck as Obama has been.

Bernie is only rising because he's the only alternative to Hillary. And since he's the only alternative to Hillary, he's gotten more exposure as the #2 guy in the polls. Coincide that with Hillary's decline, and it's easy to see why people are finally saying oh **** Hillary might not win, let's see what Bernie is about. O'Malley is there just to try and get on the Veep train.

The Biden Hype Train lasted only for a few weeks. If he had been in the race since the beginning or announced he was coming in, he'd likely be ahead of Bernie right now. The more time people would have to listen to Joe, who's a better talker than Hillary or Bernie, the more he'd be likeable and electable.

And yes if you look at Biden's legislative record, he and Obama are not as far left as Bernie, but satisfying enough to progressives.

Just imagine if Elizabeth Warren was in the race, how much points she'd take away from Hillary and Bernie.

 

[zitothebrave]

Warren would wreck Bernie, but she's way more liberal than Biden. Warren isn't running

My point is that with Biden in the race he and Hillary split the moderate/party votes leaving Bernie for the more radical spectrum. So if it's 30/30/30 then Bernie is right in the mix. Even if it's 35/35/25 or something like that Bernie is within Margin of error and given his young base, he should beat his poll numbers.

 

[goldfly]

This turned me on.

 

[50PoundHead]

Gather 'round chilluns.

There used to be this group called the Democratic Leadership Conference (DLC) that was composed largely of moderate Southern Democrats and was established during the Reagan era in reaction to Reagan's landslides in 1980 and 1984. Both Clintons were instrumental in the establishment of the DLC. Biden didn't throw in with that crowd, so that's where some fundamental differences in policy and approach between Biden and the Clintons were established and those differences have likely been maintained. Sanders obviously is well outside the DLC realm as well.

I think, in some sense, Obama doesn't line up neatly on the left-to-right spectrum. He's obviously an urban liberal in some sense, but in another sense, he's essentially a slightly left-of-center pragmatist who thinks in broad themes and isn't wedded to particular means of meeting goals related to those themes. I think the other thing is that he's somewhat of a futurist in that he sees the paradigm changing and he can't figure out why others can't see that. Of all the things that has hurt him, it has been that touch of arrogance that is number one on the list (at least in my view).

As per Sanders, I don't dislike him, but I know the "type" from my years as a professional political hack. My frustration in dealing with folks from the Sandersesque universe probably clouds my vision on him, but there's no way he can do what he purports without some kind of middle class tax increase. For an honest guy, I don't think he's being all that honest about that. To sell his program, he has to say something to the effect that "Reagan lied when he said 'government is the problem' and he cut a bunch of middle class programs that were bargains for you in return for tax cuts that were paltry for you and gigantic for the wealthy." But he's not doing that. In fairness, neither Obama nor Clinton used those lines in 2008 and promised similar things. Summing up, Sanders' followers strike me as people who don't want to be vegetarians, but don't want to kill animals.

 

[jpx7]

I think, in some sense, Obama doesn't line up neatly on the left-to-right spectrum. He's obviously an urban liberal in some sense, but in another sense, he's essentially a slightly left-of-center pragmatist who thinks in broad themes and isn't wedded to particular means of meeting goals related to those themes. I think the other thing is that he's somewhat of a futurist in that he sees the paradigm changing and he can't figure out why others can't see that.

This is very perspicacious.

Of all the things that has hurt him, it has been that touch of arrogance that is number one on the list (at least in my view).

He's got a touch, as he himself has admitted, of that T.S. Eliot about him—that certain kind of intellectual conservatism—where you're essentially saying, "I've studied this, I understand this better than you do, and you should respect that." Personally, I kind of like it, even if I myself try not to operate with that kind of arrogance.

Summing up, Sanders' followers strike me as people who don't want to be vegetarians, but don't want to kill animals.

I'm mostly on the Sanders train—but I've been putting up with vegetarians my whole life, and would actually prefer to make the sausage myself (or know exactly by whom and how it was made).

 

[The Tariff King]

I agree about Obama. He's too smart for the job at times which is why I laugh when I see those far right websites with click bait calling him a moron.

But as Jpx said I like that about him and part of the problem is even when he tries to break it down to the simpleton he ends off appearing arrogant.

If you look at how Obama habdles speeches in foreign countries or even meeting regular people in cities you can tell there's a method to his madness when he talks to people. He strikes me as someone that doesn't like small talk but uses it to keep people listening to him.

And that's why to me he's not just a good orator but an excellent people person in person. I think years ago he gave up on trying to convince southern rednecks he's a nice guy. They already think he's Hitler and has a conspiracy to kill us all and bring all the muslims here.

 

[sturg33]

Gather 'round chilluns.

There used to be this group called the Democratic Leadership Conference (DLC) that was composed largely of moderate Southern Democrats and was established during the Reagan era in reaction to Reagan's landslides in 1980 and 1984. Both Clintons were instrumental in the establishment of the DLC. Biden didn't throw in with that crowd, so that's where some fundamental differences in policy and approach between Biden and the Clintons were established and those differences have likely been maintained. Sanders obviously is well outside the DLC realm as well.

I think, in some sense, Obama doesn't line up neatly on the left-to-right spectrum. He's obviously an urban liberal in some sense, but in another sense, he's essentially a slightly left-of-center pragmatist who thinks in broad themes and isn't wedded to particular means of meeting goals related to those themes. I think the other thing is that he's somewhat of a futurist in that he sees the paradigm changing and he can't figure out why others can't see that. Of all the things that has hurt him, it has been that touch of arrogance that is number one on the list (at least in my view).

As per Sanders, I don't dislike him, but I know the "type" from my years as a professional political hack. My frustration in dealing with folks from the Sandersesque universe probably clouds my vision on him, but there's no way he can do what he purports without some kind of middle class tax increase. For an honest guy, I don't think he's being all that honest about that. To sell his program, he has to say something to the effect that "Reagan lied when he said 'government is the problem' and he cut a bunch of middle class programs that were bargains for you in return for tax cuts that were paltry for you and gigantic for the wealthy." But he's not doing that. In fairness, neither Obama nor Clinton used those lines in 2008 and promised similar things. Summing up, Sanders' followers strike me as people who don't want to be vegetarians, but don't want to kill animals.

If there was a nomination for most reasonable political poster, you'd get my vote. Despite the fact that we disagree a lot, I learn a lot from your posts and you are very cordial all the time

 

[50PoundHead]

I agree about Obama. He's too smart for the job at times which is why I laugh when I see those far right websites with click bait calling him a moron.

But as Jpx said I like that about him and part of the problem is even when he tries to break it down to the simpleton he ends off appearing arrogant.

If you look at how Obama habdles speeches in foreign countries or even meeting regular people in cities you can tell there's a method to his madness when he talks to people. He strikes me as someone that doesn't like small talk but uses it to keep people listening to him.

And that's why to me he's not just a good orator but an excellent people person in person. I think years ago he gave up on trying to convince southern rednecks he's a nice guy. They already think he's Hitler and has a conspiracy to kill us all and bring all the muslims here.

The risk with that is that it comes off as dismissive too often.

As I peruse the media in advance of the State of the Union message, I see he's going to talk about the state of political discourse. That's all well and good, but I think he needs to remember that not everyone is going to agree with him on every issue and his points may sound preachy. There's no question that compromise is a lost art (made even more remote by the rise of various technologies and inability of both elected officials and voters to take "No" for answer) and I hope his comments bring back the notion that you don't have to pitch a shutout on every issue to move the country forward.

 

[50PoundHead]

If there was a nomination for most reasonable political poster, you'd get my vote. Despite the fact that we disagree a lot, I learn a lot from your posts and you are very cordial all the time

I appreciate that sturg33. I really try (and avoid threads where I know my blood pressure is going to rise).

Check your private messages. I have a gift for you if you want it.

 

[bravesnumberone]

Bernie is looking pretty solid in Iowa and great in New Hampshire right now. The real test is going to be when he moves out of those whitey white white states and the Nevada, South Carolina, Florida, etc. races come up.

 

[weso1]

I appreciate that sturg33. I really try (and avoid threads where I know my blood pressure is going to rise).

Check your private messages. I have a gift for you if you want it.

Not sure if I would want a gift from a poster with the name 50poundhead. Just saying it might not be a gift I'd want.

 

[zitothebrave]

Bernie is looking pretty solid in Iowa and great in New Hampshire right now. The real test is going to be when he moves out of those whitey white white states and the Nevada, South Carolina, Florida, etc. races come up.

He's gonna get wrecked in the south, doesn't have a prayer. Clintons own the southern democrats. He needs to take the Northeast and he needs to take the West as best as possible. He's gonna struggle in any state that normally goes republican because he's too radical for the democrats of that state.

 

[weso1]

I think he's too radical for the general population as a whole. I think he'd probably be trounced in the general election no matter which of the pubs wins the nomination.

Hillary or a late arrival will be the nominee. Someone like Al Gore may swoop down from the heavens.

 

[jpx7]

If there was a nomination for most reasonable political poster, you'd get my vote. Despite the fact that we disagree a lot, I learn a lot from your posts and you are very cordial all the time

Seconded.

 

[bravesnumberone]

The greatest disservice that's been done to him is by Debbie and her clan at the DNC essentially censoring him. Hardly scheduling any debates and the ones they do schedule are on weekend nights. It's all so blatantly slanted toward Clinton, and as every day goes by, I have no idea how anyone could vote for her. If it was her and a wingnut like Trump or Cruz, I would hope Americans would just take their pants off, sit on the couch and boycott the election.

 

[bravesnumberone]

I think he's too radical for the general population as a whole. I think he'd probably be trounced in the general election no matter which of the pubs wins the nomination.

Hillary or a late arrival will be the nominee. Someone like Al Gore may swoop down from the heavens.

What would be interesting is an election between Bernie and a big right-winger like Cruz. Wonder which one would blink first on trying to move to the center for the general.

Hard to imagine Biden not regretting staying on the sideline.

 

[zitothebrave]

I think he's too radical for the general population as a whole. I think he'd probably be trounced in the general election no matter which of the pubs wins the nomination.

Hillary or a late arrival will be the nominee. Someone like Al Gore may swoop down from the heavens.

IF he'd be trounced why is he right there with any republican in polls?

Quinipaq poll ending 12/20 had Clinton +7 over trump, even with Cruz, +1 with Rubio, Sanders is +13 over Trump, -3 vs Rubio and -1 vs Cruz. THere's not a major difference in the polling between the 2 nationally.