Yes. It's much easier to find a player like Heyward in RF, who is very good defensively and a little above average offensively. Finding a CFer who is a little above average on offense and defense is a rare commodity. Which is why BeeJ got like 80 million from us. You think if BJ was a corner OFer that he would have got that sort of contract?
Sherman: Braves offered Heyward 80M after 2013
- Thread starter chop2chip
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Yes. It's much easier to find a player like Heyward in RF, who is very good defensively and a little above average offensively. Finding a CFer who is a little above average on offense and defense is a rare commodity. Which is why BeeJ got like 80 million from us. You think if BJ was a corner OFer that he would have got that sort of contract?
There is poor then there is atrocious. Citing players who could theortically be among the best defenders in the game but who's hitting is so god awful that they can't even get to 1 WAR as to why teams don't pay for defense doesn't work.
So defensive value by nature is dependent on offensive value? Does the same relationship exist in the other direction?
If BJ's ok defense in center translated to great defense in left to where it left him the same WAR then yes someone would have given him a similar contract.
In terms of contracts? Yes. In terms of actually getting to stick in the big leagues? Generally no because if you can hit then you are going to find a spot to play. No player, not even Adam Dunn, can be so be so horrible on defense that it isn't worth playing. You can be so bad at hitting that it's not worh playing you even if you are all-world defensively.
chop2chip
Well-known member
I'm citing the value of outfield defense in general. There's clearly a reason why mediocre hitters can stick at SS and 2B, but not in the OF. Maybe those reasons aren't valid, but they exist nonetheless. Defensive first corner OF's are an extreme rarity in the major leagues and it's not because corner OF defense is the hardest defense to play.
chop2chip
Well-known member
Wil Myers was playing every day in CF and he had a -9 DRS in 30 games. It happens a lot more than the inverse.
It's generally because if you are good enough to play elite level defense in a corner outfield you get moved somewhere else. Which is why it's been suggested that Heyward move to center to increase his value.
How old was Gardner when he signed that contract? He was also coming off two 3.3 WAR seasons in a row and his defense had started to slip for 3 seasons. If that happened to Heyward then no he wouldn't be getting that much.
Bourjos also hasn't topped 2.1 WAR in like 4 years. I think the 2011 Bourjos season is a better comparrison. If Bourjos could have doen that year after year how much do you think he would be getting.
Where is Myers playing now?
Why didn't Bourn make more than BJ then?
chop2chip
Well-known member
You are arguing a separate point now. You can't fall back to the crux of WAR because that's beside the point. I'm arguing the value of OF defense. The whole basis of this argument is that Heyward isn't worth 150M because he's the premier defensive RF in baseball. He is only worth that much on the basis that his bat returns to his pre injury levels (2012 Heyward).
Can you cite an example of a player whose OF defense warranted him being paid as an elite player? That doesn't exist. Michael Bourn was coming off 4 straight seasons of elite defense and he struggled getting 50 million. Heyward cannot and will not be valued as a top 10 player unless he hits like he did in 2012.
chop2chip
Well-known member
It didn't seem like San Diego cared about their outfield defense when they assembled that trio. I doubt you would find the alternative of three glove first players who are abominations on offense.
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
You usually odn't because if you can't hit enough to stay up you get otu fo baseball. If you can hit but can't field they find a place to play you.
chop2chip
Well-known member
That's my point entirely. Even when offensive contributions are equal in value to defensive contributions, offense is paid more.
If you want a good example of this, then look no further than our $44 million dollar RF.
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
Markakis isn't very good offensively either. From 2010-2014 he was worth about 13 RAR, positional adjustments were -27.
I assumed we signed him cause JS was into Greek.
chop2chip
Well-known member
I regret bringing him up lol
OOOOOOPS.
I'm sorry, Heyward, his camp, and his defenders simply can't make the case that he's a $150+ million player at this point - there are no numbers that will change that.
Will someone give it to him this winter? Possibly. Of course the Angels gave Josh Hamilton that kind of money and then ate half of it to get rid of him.
Giving Jason $150 million won't be TWICE as bad as giving B. J. $75 million, but it'll be close.
I'm sorry, Heyward, his camp, and his defenders simply can't make the case that he's a $150+ million player at this point - there are no numbers that will change that.
Will someone give it to him this winter? Possibly. Of course the Angels gave Josh Hamilton that kind of money and then ate half of it to get rid of him.
Giving Jason $150 million won't be TWICE as bad as giving B. J. $75 million, but it'll be close.
Heyward was sold as providing tape measure HR's and breaking car windshields. Was going to steal some bases too. Ever since, he never became MVP-caliber, as was advertised, the story changed. The new party line is that his defense is suddenly so irreplaceble. Of course, there are bogus statistics to support the bogus theory.
Willing to defer until the end of the year, but expecting that the Braves pickpockted the Cards will be the prevailing viewpoint among most bystanders.
Willing to defer until the end of the year, but expecting that the Braves pickpockted the Cards will be the prevailing viewpoint among most bystanders.