Smoltz elected to Cooperstown along with Pedro, Unit, and Biggio.

Knucksie said:
You really don't know. Murph was elite in those MVP years. Checking Fangraphs & watching YouTube does no justice. Ask anybody who was around. He was absolutely cruising to a HOF career before the tailspin. The crappy Braves teams of the late 80's didn't help the cause, esp. with Horner getting exiled to Japan.
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Agreed on all counts. There were not 10 to 15 players who were better than Murphy from 1980-87.

It wouldn't bother me so much not seeing Murphy in the HOF if Jim Rice and Andre Dawson didn't have plaques there. If Murphy isn't HOF caliber then neither of those guys should be in either.
 
DirkPiggler said:
Agreed on all counts. There were not 10 to 15 players who were better than Murphy from 1980-87.

It wouldn't bother me so much not seeing Murphy in the HOF if Jim Rice and Andre Dawson didn't have plaques there. If Murphy isn't HOF caliber then neither of those guys should be in either.
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I don't think it's fair to compare Andre Dawson and Jim Rice. Jim Rice was a great hitting god awful defender. Rice was a good hitting pretty solid defender. Also Dawson was helped quite a lot by being an Expo. Second Expo in the hall had a good ring. Carter was the first but most people associated him with the Mets, kind of like if Maddux went in as a Cub, people would have been confused cause he's primarily associated with the Braves.
 
Knucksie said:
You really don't know. Murph was elite in those MVP years. Checking Fangraphs & watching YouTube does no justice. Ask anybody who was around. He was absolutely cruising to a HOF career before the tailspin. The crappy Braves teams of the late 80's didn't help the cause, esp. with Horner getting exiled to Japan.
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He was elite in those MVP years. Just good the rest of the time. Only 3 seasons with a WAR over 6. Yes at the time these things didn't matter but I think they should now. I know the defensive stats for players prior to 2002 aren't nearly as good as the yare now but it still shows Murphy as a not so good defensive player despsite the gold gloves. As we know a good offensive player can sometimes get a reputation as a good defender when that is not the case. I beleive that was the case here. With the gold gloves and MVP's he was thought of more then what he actually was. Again this is a case where perception doesn't line up with reality.
 
DirkPiggler said:
Agreed on all counts. There were not 10 to 15 players who were better than Murphy from 1980-87.

It wouldn't bother me so much not seeing Murphy in the HOF if Jim Rice and Andre Dawson didn't have plaques there. If Murphy isn't HOF caliber then neither of those guys should be in either.
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Being a top 10 player for 7 years doesn't make one HOF worthy when that's really all you have.
 
I think the issue for me with Murph is that he's quite good, but didn't have a sustained peak and for a short peak it wasn't that sick. It wasn't like he was say Albert Pujols for 8 years. He was bested in basically every offensive stat during his peak by Mike Schmidt, and Schmidt played in a more pitching friendly park.
 
I find it interesting to find out that John Smoltz is the first pitcher to be inducted into the HOF having undergone Tommy John surgery.
 
thewupk said:
Being a top 10 player for 7 years doesn't make one HOF worthy when that's really all you have.
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That's fair, and the reason why Murphy isn't in the hall. Others, including Rice and Dawson, are there with similar resumes though. Both played on crap teams just like Murphy.
 
zitothebrave said:
I think the issue for me with Murph is that he's quite good, but didn't have a sustained peak and for a short peak it wasn't that sick. It wasn't like he was say Albert Pujols for 8 years. He was bested in basically every offensive stat during his peak by Mike Schmidt, and Schmidt played in a more pitching friendly park.
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Schmidt was slightly better than Murphy in that time frame offensively.

Murphy's numbers (especially power and OPS) were as good as anyone's in that time frame. He was better than top ten for those years. At least top five.

I'll admit some bias on Murphy. He was my favorite player growing up. However, I did keep up with all of baseball back then (was a MicroLeague Baseball, Avalon Hill and later Strat-o-matic geek), to the point where I knew who was good and who wasn't. Murphy was elite in his day, better than Rice and as good as if not better than Dawson.
 
depley said:
I find it interesting to find out that John Smoltz is the first pitcher to be inducted into the HOF having undergone Tommy John surgery.
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When you think about it though it's not insane. It's very rare that TJ pitchers have long and prosperous careers. They lose a full year of production as well because of lost time. Smoltz was tough as nails and able to grit through injuries and recover faster. Smoltz was absolutely a special player.
 
DirkPiggler said:
Schmidt was slightly better than Murphy in that time frame offensively.

Murphy's numbers (especially power and OPS) were as good as anyone's in that time frame. He was better than top ten for those years. At least top five.

I'll admit some bias on Murphy. He was my favorite player growing up. However, I did keep up with all of baseball back then (was a MicroLeague Baseball, Avalon Hill and later Strat-o-matic geek), to the point where I knew who was good and who wasn't. Murphy was elite in his day, better than Rice and as good as if not better than Dawson.
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One has to remember though that Fulton County was called the launching pad and it inflated offensive numbers. Not to the extent of Coors but it still did. It's hitting park factor was 105-110 every year which is really good. So while Murphy was a really good power hitter at his peak it's likely inflated a bit.

Murphy was elite at his peak. It just wasn't long enough. And he wasn't very good defensively despite a good reputiation.
 
What's insane is that Tommy John is not in the Hall of Fame. His numbers are borderline, but think of the impact he has had on the game by being the first pitcher to come back and perform at a high level after that surgery. Hell, what other player has a surgical procedure named after him?
 
DirkPiggler said:
Schmidt was slightly better than Murphy in that time frame offensively.

Murphy's numbers (especially power and OPS) were as good as anyone's in that time frame. He was better than top ten for those years. At least top five.

I'll admit some bias on Murphy. He was my favorite player growing up. However, I did keep up with all of baseball back then (was a MicroLeague Baseball, Avalon Hill and later Strat-o-matic geek), to the point where I knew who was good and who wasn't. Murphy was elite in his day, better than Rice and as good as if not better than Dawson.
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Schmidt was more than slightly better.

.283/.392/.559 158 wRC+

Murphy

.284/.374/.517 139 wRC+

Also important to remember Schmidt was one of the best defensive 3B of all time, Murphy was average to below average.

In that time frame, factoring in PA as important, Murph was the 7th best hitter.

Schmidt was far and away number 1, Murray number 2, Brett 3, Henderson 4, Evans 5, Boggs 6.
 
DirkPiggler said:
What's insane is that Tommy John is not in the Hall of Fame. His numbers are borderline, but think of the impact he has had on the game by being the first pitcher to come back and perform at a high level after that surgery. Hell, what other player has a surgical procedure named after him?
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I think the vets will put Tommy John in, for that reason, the first pitcher to come back successfully come back. I don't think the writers put him in because that isn't what they base it on.
 
DirkPiggler said:
That's fair, and the reason why Murphy isn't in the hall. Others, including Rice and Dawson, are there with similar resumes though. Both played on crap teams just like Murphy.
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Murphy 119 WRC+ 44.3 WAR

Rice 128 WRC+ 50.8 WAR

Dawson 117 WRC+ 59.5 WAR

I don't think any of 3 are necessarily great HOF choices but Murphys sharp decline really really hurts him. Rice should not be in the HOF either and Dawson is really boderline and is really a big hall selection which I'm usually against.
 
Julio3000 said:
Like Jack Morris? ;-)
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Go back and re-read. I mentioned him in passing about '91 WS Games 7. A certain poster, who apparently is online all day, decided to pick a debate. Voila, Fangraphs! Personally, it could go either way, and there was a fair amount of voters who thought so. Of course, they're not as brilliant as kids on message board, who banter about "advanced metrics," but otherwise really couldn't explain the logic behind WAR.
 
thewupk said:
He was elite in those MVP years. Just good the rest of the time. Only 3 seasons with a WAR over 6. Yes at the time these things didn't matter but I think they should now. I know the defensive stats for players prior to 2002 aren't nearly as good as the yare now but it still shows Murphy as a not so good defensive player despsite the gold gloves. As we know a good offensive player can sometimes get a reputation as a good defender when that is not the case. I beleive that was the case here. With the gold gloves and MVP's he was thought of more then what he actually was. Again this is a case where perception doesn't line up with reality.
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Unless you were of age when he played, please don't bother trying to address the issue. Going to Fangraphs and quoting WAR isn't going to leave any impression. The concept didn't even exist in 1982.
 
Knucksie said:
Unless you were of age when he played, please don't bother trying to address the issue. Going to Fangraphs and quoting WAR isn't going to leave any impression. The concept didn't even exist in 1982.
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Forensics didn't exist back then, why open up old cases with new technology.
 
Knucksie said:
Unless you were of age when he played, please don't bother trying to address the issue. Going to Fangraphs and quoting WAR isn't going to leave any impression. The concept didn't even exist in 1982.
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But the basics behind the stats existed. Murphy was popular because he was good and sometimes great on a team that had it's game broadcasted nationally. His overall body of work is not great when comparing it to the hall of fame.
 
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