Sydney Hostage Crisis

zitothebrave said:
It will or it will die. And it will undergo a more rapid progression as the world around it is much more progressive than the world around 1400s Christianity. Evolution, it's the law.
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Except that the great majority of (fundamentalist) Muslims practicing outside of the United States view the progressivism occurring around them as Western secularistic. So that evolution is something they actively condemn.
 
Hawk said:
Except that the great majority of (fundamentalist) Muslims practicing outside of the United States view the progressivism occurring around them as Western secularistic. So that evolution is something they actively condemn.
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Like I said in the other thread.

Three I worked with, westernized Muslims, good people, condemn the crap going over there and actually called them names I really don't understand.

Pretty much explained to me they (ME) are stuck in a mindset and do not want to change but actually make ALL go back to the old ways.

Won't work in the nowadays.
 
Hawk said:
Except that the great majority of (fundamentalist) Muslims practicing outside of the United States view the progressivism occurring around them as Western secularistic. So that evolution is something they actively condemn.
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And they will die out. It is how things go, if you stand in the way of progress you get ran over. You can hold people back for some time, but human nature pushes them past you at some point. At some point people don't want to die. At some point you have to stop killing people to survive as a culture, so on so forth. THey'll evolve or go the way of the Dodo.
 
zitothebrave said:
And they will die out. It is how things go, if you stand in the way of progress you get ran over. You can hold people back for some time, but human nature pushes them past you at some point. At some point people don't want to die. At some point you have to stop killing people to survive as a culture, so on so forth. THey'll evolve or go the way of the Dodo.
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I understand the point you are trying to make, but it's universal in nature and doesn't give the core of the religion we're discussing proper consideration. I also think you are discounting just how many people align with those beliefs ... it's not just Boko Haram and ISIL. We're talking millions of people. Die out? Maybe in a bloody war.
 
Hawk said:
I understand the point you are trying to make, but it's universal in nature and doesn't give the core of the religion we're discussing proper consideration. I also think you are discounting just how many people align with those beliefs ... it's not just Boko Haram and ISIL. We're talking tens of millions of people. Die out? Maybe in a bloody war.
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Those tens of millions also control large regions of land and ensure that the next generation of youth align with their beliefs. So unless the free world does something to stop this cycle it will not end.
 
thethe said:
Those tens of millions also control large regions of land and ensure that the next generation of youth align with their beliefs. So unless the free world does something to stop this cycle it will not end.
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We should probably bomb and occupy that land. That should help relations thrive.
 
Hawk said:
I understand the point you are trying to make, but it's universal in nature and doesn't give the core of the religion we're discussing proper consideration. I also think you are discounting just how many people align with those beliefs ... it's not just Boko Haram and ISIL. We're talking millions of people. Die out? Maybe in a bloody war.
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Same coudl be said about the belief people had in the USSR. How could it end? So much power, so many people, etc. I know a nation and a core belief system have different issues, but the USSR was the religion of it's people. THey were as hard core if not more hard core than most muslim extremists. But eventually that hard core line softened and eventually it snapped.

IT will die out, we may not see it in our generation, or the next but people want to leave a better life for their children then they had, it will happen,
 
zitothebrave said:
Same coudl be said about the belief people had in the USSR. How could it end? So much power, so many people, etc. I know a nation and a core belief system have different issues, but the USSR was the religion of it's people. THey were as hard core if not more hard core than most muslim extremists. But eventually that hard core line softened and eventually it snapped.

IT will die out, we may not see it in our generation, or the next but people want to leave a better life for their children then they had, it will happen,
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Don't hold your breath. They need to be westernized and I don't see that happening for centuries.
 
AerchAngel said:
Don't hold your breath. They need to be westernized and I don't see that happening for centuries.
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I'm not holding my breath, it's going to change, Islam will die out if it doesn't modernize. It will modernize. Same thing with Christianity. They would have become extinct if they didn't adapt. There are many examples of that. Catholicism has virtually accepted evolution, took a long ass time but it happens, change happens, people learn how to be religious in the modern world.
 
zitothebrave said:
Same coudl be said about the belief people had in the USSR. How could it end? So much power, so many people, etc. I know a nation and a core belief system have different issues, but the USSR was the religion of it's people. THey were as hard core if not more hard core than most muslim extremists. But eventually that hard core line softened and eventually it snapped.

IT will die out, we may not see it in our generation, or the next but people want to leave a better life for their children then they had, it will happen,
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I don't think the USSR comparison is a good one. Although, if you want to go that route, I would argue that the ideals of that government are very much still in existence in modern Russian society. Pervasively so.

Fundamental Islamism will not die out, but I envy your optimism. Would rather call it naivete, but that's better reserved for others on here who are less inclined to critical thought.
 
Hawk said:
I don't think the USSR comparison is a good one. Although, if you want to go that route, I would argue that the ideals of that government are very much still in existence in modern Russian society. Pervasively so.

Fundamental Islamism will not die out, but I envy your optimism. Would rather call it naivete, but that's better reserved for others on here who are less inclined to critical thought.
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It won't change, not for centuries. They want it back to the old ways. They need to understand freedom of religion first to even get into the door and their religion forbids it. It is like one of the commandments.

How can they go against their number one law?
 
of course it can die out

the best doctors and smartest minds use to come out of the middle east while europe and the white people were killing in the name of God

don't see why it can't change course again.

thankfully we have way more secular people in this country or the far right religious folks would pass very similar laws to what the middle east have right now.
 
sturg33 said:
We should probably bomb and occupy that land. That should help relations thrive.
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Um no.

Send all the westernized Muslims back to their country and preach freedom of religion. If they don't get killed, they could probably make a difference.
 
goldfly said:
of course it can die out

the best doctors and smartest minds use to come out of the middle east while europe and the white people were killing in the name of God

don't see why it can't change course again.

thankfully we have way more secular people in this country or the far right religious folks would pass very similar laws to what the middle east have right now.
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Like who, the Mormons? Catholics?
 
Hawk said:
I don't think the USSR comparison is a good one. Although, if you want to go that route, I would argue that the ideals of that government are very much still in existence in modern Russian society. Pervasively so.

Fundamental Islamism will not die out, but I envy your optimism. Would rather call it naivete, but that's better reserved for others on here who are less inclined to critical thought.
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Perhaps I should rephrase my die out to saying dominant fundamental Islam will die out. You'll see the core belief system in tact, you'll see parts where there's the hyper religious because some poeple are wired that way, but on the grand scale, it will die. You won't see an entire region dominated by it. You'll instead see parts of it. What makes middle east Islam tricky is the nomadic tendencies of the very recent, they're as a far behind the times as any culture in the world.

And parts of the USSR are still alive in Russia, but it's changing, and it will continue to change as well. It's the evolutionary cycle of society. The second the actions of say Putin who's one of the more commonly associated with USSR beliefs, ruins the riches of the rich russians (who I may be wrong but seem quite in love with Western culture as many of them seem to live/take residence in the US and UK, just an observation, not a fact though) they'll be ousted. And the same thing will happen in the Middle East. I have little doubt that a healthy chunk of the strife in the middle east isn't created by the Middle Eastern oil families, as is evident by them giving money to radical groups. For them strife in the middle east equals profit, scare over supply creates a run on prices which makes them richer even if there is no threat to the supply. When oil demand plummets because of poeple being sick of being on the hamster wheel their influence falls and that's one less weapon extremists have.
 
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