The inevitable Inciarte trade

JohnAdcox said:
We must, must trader Ender ASAP, because depth is a terrible thing that only hurts clubs. Uh, that's the argument, right? Just making sure I'm following.
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Agree.
Honestly Ender's deal is so good we could keep him as a fourth OF. Especially if we are playing a guy like Pache at the minimum. I'm not sure how the clubhouse dynamics work for something like that but it's possible given the money.

I hope we keep Ender to the end of his deal. I just hope we get to a point where he's never batting above 7th and never hitting vs a LH.
 
JohnAdcox said:
We must, must trader Ender ASAP, because depth is a terrible thing that only hurts clubs. Uh, that's the argument, right? Just making sure I'm following.
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It’s not a matter of depth being bad and us not being able to afford him. It’s a matter of Inciarte becoming redundant to us in a hurry while other teams may be looking how a cheap 2.5WAR CF will improve their roster. Maybe in a deal with the Indians for a pitcher.
 
Slippyjms said:
It’s not a matter of depth being bad and us not being able to afford him. It’s a matter of Inciarte becoming redundant to us in a hurry while other teams may be looking how a cheap 2.5WAR CF will improve their roster. Maybe in a deal with the Indians for a pitcher.
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Any player should be available if another team makes a great offer. But beyond that caveat, I don't see the logic for moving Inciarte.
 
nsacpi said:
Any player should be available if another team makes a great offer. But beyond that caveat, I don't see the logic for moving Inciarte.
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I mean no one is saying he’s garbage and should be cut immediately. My underlying logic is the sooner we deal Ender the more value we’d extract from him in a trade. Maybe it’s midseason maybe it’s this offseason but he needs to be dealt before his surplus value dries up too much.
 
JohnAdcox said:
We must, must trader Ender ASAP, because depth is a terrible thing that only hurts clubs. Uh, that's the argument, right? Just making sure I'm following.
Click to expand...

Don't think that was the point of the thread, but discussing things isn't what message boards are for - right?

Never you, but the numbers crowd is completely about searching for value. I somehow don't think the OP was all about shipping Ender off today as much as it was about asking for ideas others had about what kind of return they think AA could or should be targeting if/when Inciarte "inevitably" gets moved. Would he fit as a 4th OF if you keep him? Sure. Of course it's awfully tough to picture the Braves spending $8 million a year on a 4th OF when they wouldn't spend that kind of money to try to fix glaring holes in the pen.

Preaching patience when it comes to Pache's timeline makes plenty of sense, but why ridicule the poster for asking about looking for value to help in other areas now? If you honestly believe that Ender "should never bat higher than 7th and always sit against lefties", how much value is he truly adding to this particular team as opposed to a spreadsheet? Pache could arguably replace his defense TODAY, so even if his bat doesn't develop further are you really losing much if you already believe you're only paying for Ender to play defense and hit 7th or 8th? Sure the defense would take a little hit with Acuna in CF if you didn't plug Pache in out there immediately - and you let him continue to develop in the minors - but how much better might you get right away if you added one of the Cleveland SPs to the top of the rotation and split the LF ABs between Camargo and Joyce? Remember, Ender provides nothing on offense.
 
Slippyjms said:
I mean no one is saying he’s garbage and should be cut immediately. My underlying logic is the sooner we deal Ender the more value we’d extract from him in a trade. Maybe it’s midseason maybe it’s this offseason but he needs to be dealt before his surplus value dries up too much.
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But its not as if this surplus value is being used up in a lost or rebuilding season. It is as valuable right now as it ever will be. So I don't understand the logic. Why would we be discounting the 2019 season in any way. That makes no sense.
 
clvclv said:
Don't think that was the point of the thread, but discussing things isn't what message boards are for - right?

Never you, but the numbers crowd is completely about searching for value. I somehow don't think the OP was all about shipping Ender off today as much as it was about asking for ideas others had about what kind of return they think AA could or should be targeting if/when Inciarte "inevitably" gets moved. Would he fit as a 4th OF if you keep him? Sure. Of course it's awfully tough to picture the Braves spending $8 million a year on a 4th OF when they wouldn't spend that kind of money to try to fix glaring holes in the pen.

Preaching patience when it comes to Pache's timeline makes plenty of sense, but why ridicule the poster for asking about looking for value to help in other areas now? If you honestly believe that Ender "should never bat higher than 7th and always sit against lefties", how much value is he truly adding to this particular team as opposed to a spreadsheet? Pache could arguably replace his defense TODAY, so even if his bat doesn't develop further are you really losing much if you already believe you're only paying for Ender to play defense and hit 7th or 8th? Sure the defense would take a little hit with Acuna in CF if you didn't plug Pache in out there immediately - and you let him continue to develop in the minors - but how much better might you get right away if you added one of the Cleveland SPs to the top of the rotation and split the LF ABs between Camargo and Joyce? Remember, Ender provides nothing on offense.
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All of this
 
clvclv said:
Don't think that was the point of the thread, but discussing things isn't what message boards are for - right?

Never you, but the numbers crowd is completely about searching for value. I somehow don't think the OP was all about shipping Ender off today as much as it was about asking for ideas others had about what kind of return they think AA could or should be targeting if/when Inciarte "inevitably" gets moved. Would he fit as a 4th OF if you keep him? Sure. Of course it's awfully tough to picture the Braves spending $8 million a year on a 4th OF when they wouldn't spend that kind of money to try to fix glaring holes in the pen.

Preaching patience when it comes to Pache's timeline makes plenty of sense, but why ridicule the poster for asking about looking for value to help in other areas now? If you honestly believe that Ender "should never bat higher than 7th and always sit against lefties", how much value is he truly adding to this particular team as opposed to a spreadsheet? Pache could arguably replace his defense TODAY, so even if his bat doesn't develop further are you really losing much if you already believe you're only paying for Ender to play defense and hit 7th or 8th? Sure the defense would take a little hit with Acuna in CF if you didn't plug Pache in out there immediately - and you let him continue to develop in the minors - but how much better might you get right away if you added one of the Cleveland SPs to the top of the rotation and split the LF ABs between Camargo and Joyce? Remember, Ender provides nothing on offense.
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So Ender isn't adding much value to this team, but somehow he'll be worth a lot to some other team... Sure that makes sense.
 
Carp said:
So Ender isn't adding much value to this team, but somehow he'll be worth a lot to some other team... Sure that makes sense.
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It’s not that Ender isn’t adding value to the team. It’s that we have players in our system that can replace what Ender brings. We’d be dealing from a position of depth to fill a hole.
 
Slippyjms said:
It’s not that Ender isn’t adding value to the team. It’s that we have players in our system that can replace what Ender brings. We’d be dealing from a position of depth to fill a hole.
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Ender as a slightly overpaid declining 4th OF would still be great for the young guys in the OF like Acuna and Pache. Oh and Waters too. I could easily see Ender being a part of the Braves family even after he inevitably leaves our team to go somewhere else. Definitely one of the guys the organization is going to ask to come to every spring training like Andruw and be a roving instructor for the system's young OFs.

Again, that grit lairdership and rah rah rah rah is what you need for contending teams. I can see Ender being a David Ross leader in clubhouse.
 
Carp said:
So Ender isn't adding much value to this team, but somehow he'll be worth a lot to some other team... Sure that makes sense.
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Where did I say "he'll be worth a lot to some other team"?

The OP asked "When do we pull the trigger on a deal?" and "What should we be expecting in return?". Both are legitimate questions - particularly if you subscribe to the "Ender isn't adding much value to this team" mantra.

If he's easily replaceable from within, shouldn't he be traded for whatever AA can get for him BEFORE what skills he brings to the table begin to decline?

I have no qualms admitting I wasn't interested in trading Julio when he was cheap because the young arms were far from ready, not to mention the fact I've always been a fan - even if he never reached the lofty ceiling we all hoped he would. Why is this situation different? If you believe Ender's useless other than the defense he provides, isn't holding onto him to be a 4th OF (potentially as early as 2020) as his salary increases as counterproductive as having Julio making the money he makes while being in the way now?
 
Slippyjms said:
It’s not that Ender isn’t adding value to the team. It’s that we have players in our system that can replace what Ender brings. We’d be dealing from a position of depth to fill a hole.
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I have my doubts Pache can be a ~3 war player right now. Also every team will have the same concerns on Ender that others are expressing right now. He's a step slower away from being a 4th OF.
 
Bc ender is a league avg hitter

It’s very likely that Pache right now is way worse at the plate.

When you have a talent like pache who could hit you don’t rush him. You either lose his control years when he’s good or maybe you rush him and he’s never good.

Pache batting 200 this year doesn’t help us.

Inciarte making less than 10 million so we can have paches age 27, 28 etc season is worth it
 
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