bravos4evr
Still Playing the Waiting Game
It doesn't give his opinion any more merit though. Something is either right or wrong on it's own, not because of who said it.
Viz and Teheran listed as top trade candidates
- Thread starter msstate7
- Start date
It doesn't give his opinion any more merit though. Something is either right or wrong on it's own, not because of who said it.
I think Coppy is the best mix of both. I wouldn't want an all old school or all new school.
And the FO has done pretty well with the rebuild minus the Olivera deal. We all joked here how they were stockpiling so much pitching but it looks like pitching surplus is going to help us land a bat or two.
chopdrew
Lynchburg Prospect
You don't know more than the guy running the Braves. Stop.
bravos4evr
Still Playing the Waiting Game
I agree that, overall, they have done a good job with the talent acquisition phase, I am more concerned about the on field strategic and team construction phase. I would like to see a FO that was determined to cash in on market inefficiencies and build a team from total player value rather than a more traditional approach. Maybe Coppy will go that way, too early to tell. But, I found his comments on defensive stats troubling. If anything has demonstrated the value of defense it's the Simmons vs Aybar thing.
bravos4evr
Still Playing the Waiting Game
you seem to have problems with reading comprehension. Please point out where I said what you claim I said. (hint: i didn't) but if you are unaware of the fallacy known as "appeal to authority" let me explain it to you....
any claim, opinion or statement is either factual or not factual based on it's own merits and not by who did the saying of it.
I would hardly say there is an equal chance. Defense is already valued fairly highly in value based stats.
bravos4evr
Still Playing the Waiting Game
and it might not be valued enough. Look at pitch framing and how, as more data has come in, we've learned it's impact! Defense is a very important part of the game and it's starting to look like a run saved is worth MORE than a run scored because of the impact on pitcher wear and tear. IDK how it's all going to work out, but I think it's reasonable to keep an even keel on the issue and not lean to much either way until we get more info.
bravesfanforlife88
Well-known member
I do like how Coppy admitted that the Olivera deal was a disaster for us. Said you learn from your mistakes. lol
chopdrew
Lynchburg Prospect
That's fine. Cling to semantics to validate yourself. I understand the "appeal to authority" fallacy, too. I took a logic course my freshman year of college, too. But you were insinuating that because you don't like a guy's opinion, he might not know what he's talking about. He doesn't inherently know more than anyone about baseball, but the information he has at his disposal most probably informs his opinion to a greater degree than someone posting on a message board. I trust him more than you on this in the same way I trust a nuclear scientist's opinion on what a safe level of exposure would be more than I'd trust yours. But please, keep talking down to people. I won't take you any more seriously, but it might help you get through your day in some form or fashion.
bravos4evr
Still Playing the Waiting Game
you misread my post, make an accusation that was false, get called on it and I'm the one talking down? welcome to ignore loser
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
Yup. This is an example of what I and other economists call an "externality." And I think that baseball (and other fields for that matter) has trouble properly valuing these things. A player who takes a lot of pitches is another example. That player creates an "externality" by driving up pitch count or giving his teammates more of an opportunity to see what a pitcher has that doesn't accrue to his statistical bottom line but has value to the team.
A pitcher who can consistently maintain effectiveness deep into a game is another example because he limits the demands on the rest of the staff or even allows you to carry one fewer pitcher. A bench player who can play a lot of different positions generates a different kind of externality by allowing the team to carry a guy on the bench who is only good with the bat.
A guy like Heyward allows the center fielder to shift toward left. So you see fewer doubles to the left side. I don't think Heyward's defensive stats reflect this value. Same thing with Simmons allowing the third baseman to play closer to the line.
There are two ex Braves that I've always associated with these externalities: Martin Prado and Gregor Blanco.
bravesfanforlife88
Well-known member
After thinking about the possibility of trading both Teheran and Viz (mostly Teheran who is far more valuable) I have come up with the following conclusion:
I am perfectly fine with trading Teheran and Viz with him, as long as the pieces coming back fill holes going into next season and the future. I am okay letting our younger guys learn at the big league level next year. Let guys like Albies and Swanson go at it for who plays SS/2B....Let guys like Jenkins, Blair, Folty, Wisler, etc. learn at the big league level while Newcomb, Ellis, etc. learn in the minors. The problem we have now, is outside of Albies and Swanson, we have no offensive talent in the minors to get too excited over. If we brought in a Moncada, Bregman, etc. that would greatly help us going into the future.
I am perfectly fine with trading Teheran and Viz with him, as long as the pieces coming back fill holes going into next season and the future. I am okay letting our younger guys learn at the big league level next year. Let guys like Albies and Swanson go at it for who plays SS/2B....Let guys like Jenkins, Blair, Folty, Wisler, etc. learn at the big league level while Newcomb, Ellis, etc. learn in the minors. The problem we have now, is outside of Albies and Swanson, we have no offensive talent in the minors to get too excited over. If we brought in a Moncada, Bregman, etc. that would greatly help us going into the future.
UNCBlue012
Well-known member
Exactly. THIS is why we have so much pitching - it's a must if we get the right deal.
conalthomas
High School Draftee
Facts are facts, but not all opinions are equally valid. When my car isn't running right, I listen to a mechanic that has proven to be right in the past. If I have a medical problem, I listen to a highly recommended doctor. I might seek a second medical opinion, but not from my mechanic.
bravos4evr
Still Playing the Waiting Game
that's a different situation though, as there is evidence to back up what they are saying. a flippant comment that defense is overrated by metrics has to either be backed up with evidence or dismissed. and the statement does not have any more merit because of who said it. this is a logical fallacy.
If he said "the braves are building through the minor leagues and our young pitching is developing" he might have more merit because he is in contact with the minor leagues and the coaches and scouts. But making a generalized statement about the veracity of a statistic is not his speciality (in fact the people who created the stats are still unsure of how accurate they are right now as they await more data)
edit: and if your doctor said 'you have influenza" that is either correct or it isn't, it doesn't become more correct because a doctor said it.
bravos4evr
Still Playing the Waiting Game
I don't think this merits it's own thread, but the Braves just picked up Catcher Jordan Pacheco on a minor league deal after he was let go by the Reds
If pitcher wear and tear is imporrant, then wouldn't getting hits off the opposing pitcher be just as important? The difference is negligible in that respect.
I see nothing to suggest that defense is underrated, much less worth more than the offense.
bravos4evr
Still Playing the Waiting Game
based on what? your eyes??? your eyes are the least reliable thing as they are subject to confirmation bias. We tend to see what we want to see, forget the good plays by a player we perceive as bad and only see the bad plays....etc I have seen no evidence to see that defense is either under or over rated at this moment as there isn't sufficient data yet, but there will be.
and a defensive play made save pitches, saved pitches are a good thing, yes getting hits costs pitches too and defense can help lower the amount of hits, thus help the pitcher, thus lower his wear and tear, thus a run saved might be worth more than a run scored (especially when combined with what is required to make up said run offensively)
edited to add: not to mention that most fans watch their team only so they don't have enough of a sample of the opposition to gauge the defensive capabilities accurately
Not really. Again, you're assuming he doesn't have proof or supporting evidence that leads him to believe the way he does. I'll trust that a major league GM who has a least a partial background in statistics knows more about that subject than you.