Viz and Teheran listed as top trade candidates

Preacher said:
I check every day now to see how the BOS pitchers do.... They've been struggling mightily lately, even Price got shelled.

Goes without saying the more their pitchers stall out the better JT has to look.
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Yea, Texas killed Boston's pitching all weekend. The Rangers had an early 6-0 lead over Price and Boston in game one. And still had a 7-4 lead with two outs and two strikes on Leon of Boston in the 9th before Diekman and Bush blew the game. They then won it on a wild pitch stealing game one. But not because of their starting pitching, it was just Texas bullpen blew it.

To sum it up, Boston should be interested in Teheran, Norris, Vizciano etc. I'd try to package them Markakis and Norris in a trade for Buchholz and a good prospect or two. But if they want Viz too I'd want a lot more and for Teheran I'd tell them to bend over...
 
Boston fans may be more upset at the trade than us if it goes down. They think that their top 4 prospects are off the table in a deal and that they should only have to give up 2 decent prospects for JT. I have a feeling they are gonna feel like the Dback fans did.
 
Hudson2 said:
Boston fans may be more upset at the trade than us if it goes down. They think that their top 4 prospects are off the table in a deal and that they should only have to give up 2 decent prospects for JT. I have a feeling they are gonna feel like the Dback fans did.
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I'll be surprised if we trade Teheran now with needing a headliner going into the new ballpark. But I hope Coppy is listening to every offer because if we get a no brainer great offer you gotta do what is best (same as with trading Miller). But if Boston or anyone wants Teheran it is going to hurt giving up what it takes to get him if I am GM. This is a thin pitching market and you're not getting the best available on it without paying extra at this time of year. Shoot even someone like Norris should bring back a good return in this market as worse pitchers than him have did so in better markets in recent years. Coppy better keep this in mind and get as much as he can for any of them, esp. if he trades Teheran or Viz. Further, I'd take less in return for Norris and Viz if packaging Markakis with them. Though not much if I am taking on another contract like say struggling Buchholz in a deal.
 
Hudson2 said:
Boston fans may be more upset at the trade than us if it goes down. They think that their top 4 prospects are off the table in a deal and that they should only have to give up 2 decent prospects for JT. I have a feeling they are gonna feel like the Dback fans did.
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Well think of it this way. At the time each of them was in AA, would you have been willing to trade Heyward or Andruw for Julio? I know I wouldn't have. With Seager and Urias promoted Moncada is the #1 prospect in baseball, if the shoe was on the other foot I'd be pissed if we did the trade.

Now if they think they can get someone like Julio without giving up Benintendi+ then they are idiots in general.

Either way I'm not saying we shouldn't be holding out for Moncada, because we should at this point (or for something like Benintendi, Espinoza, Devers, Kopech and a couple other prospects for Julio and Viz), but I would say I wouldn't do either trade as a Red Sox fan. Julio has made himself nigh untradeable from a realistic standpoint over the last couple weeks.
 
Hudson2 said:
Boston fans may be more upset at the trade than us if it goes down. They think that their top 4 prospects are off the table in a deal and that they should only have to give up 2 decent prospects for JT. I have a feeling they are gonna feel like the Dback fans did.
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You mean the same fans who were sure Phil Plantier would end of in the HOF?
 
auyushu said:
Well think of it this way. At the time each of them was in AA, would you have been willing to trade Heyward or Andruw for Julio? I know I wouldn't have. With Seager and Urias promoted Moncada is the #1 prospect in baseball, if the shoe was on the other foot I'd be pissed if we did the trade.

Now if they think they can get someone like Julio without giving up Benintendi+ then they are idiots in general.

Either way I'm not saying we shouldn't be holding out for Moncada, because we should at this point (or for something like Benintendi, Espinoza, Devers, Kopech and a couple other prospects for Julio and Viz), but I would say I wouldn't do either trade as a Red Sox fan. Julio has made himself nigh untradeable from a realistic standpoint over the last couple weeks.
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But the scenarios aren't really similar though. In Andruw's case, when he was still a prospect, we had a young core with elite position players and pitchers and we were already one of the 2 or 3 best teams in all of baseball. We didn't have many glaring needs. When Heyward was a prospect, we didn't have a great major league core and weren't very competitive for much of the time he was a prospect. So there wasn't a pressing need to trade him.

The Sox have a good core of offensive players, but are pitching starved at the major league level and they're feeling pressure to go for it in Ortiz's final season (and Pedroia likely isn't far behind him).
 
Regarding the comparisons of Vizcaino's value to the Ken Giles trade . . . I don't see us coming close to that. The Phillies did really well on that deal, and Vizcaino just isn't as valuable as Giles. Viz has 1.5 years less control, had had TJ surgery, and a PED suspension. I also think the 2015 offseason version of Giles is a better pitcher than Vizcaino is now (better K / BB rate, longer track record of success, etc.).

It's likely the Braves will trade Vizcaino, and I think they're smart to do so. But the return is very unlikely to be in the same neighborhood as the Giles trade.
 
dak said:
Regarding the comparisons of Vizcaino's value to the Ken Giles trade . . . I don't see us coming close to that. The Phillies did really well on that deal, and Vizcaino just isn't as valuable as Giles. Viz has 1.5 years less control, had had TJ surgery, and a PED suspension. I also think the 2015 offseason version of Giles is a better pitcher than Vizcaino is now (better K / BB rate, longer track record of success, etc.).

It's likely the Braves will trade Vizcaino, and I think they're smart to do so. But the return is very unlikely to be in the same neighborhood as the Giles trade.
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Completely agree. plus the way the Giles trade has blown up is going to remind GM's how volatile a BP arm can be. I think Viz and another arm will be moved to maximize the return.. but even that won't get us to a Giles like return. However, I don't think we will be that far off.
 
Carp said:
But the scenarios aren't really similar though.

The Sox have a good core of offensive players, but are pitching starved at the major league level and they're feeling pressure to go for it in Ortiz's final season (and Pedroia likely isn't far behind him).
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Scenario's really have nothing to do with it, we wouldn't have wanted to see either player traded period, regardless of the situation.

Also, Pedroia is 32 and signed through 2021 (not to mention on pace for another 4+ WAR season). What on earth are you talking about?

The Red Sox aren't some team full of aging players that need to go for it now, outside of Ortiz most of their key players are in their prime (or perhaps just past it in Pedroia's case). They may decide to go for it now, but they have no overwhelming need to.
 
dak said:
But the return is very unlikely to be in the same neighborhood as the Giles trade.
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Yeah, and beyond all the things you mentioned the Giles trade has been a complete disaster for the Astros, which will further prevent anyone from overpaying like that for a reliever.
 
Carp said:
But the scenarios aren't really similar though. In Andruw's case, when he was still a prospect, we had a young core with elite position players and pitchers and we were already one of the 2 or 3 best teams in all of baseball. We didn't have many glaring needs. When Heyward was a prospect, we didn't have a great major league core and weren't very competitive for much of the time he was a prospect. So there wasn't a pressing need to trade him.

The Sox have a good core of offensive players, but are pitching starved at the major league level and they're feeling pressure to go for it in Ortiz's final season (and Pedroia likely isn't far behind him).
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this is why i don't like coming to conclusions and draw parallels between complex situations. way more goes into it than just that crude analysis.
 
bravos4evr said:
I never said Wren had a great personality, but this has nothing to do with 'scouting directors" or any other thing, this was a direct attempt, by you, to throw another log on the FW fire. This was obviously a coaching decision. But, you'd prefer to make it about your favorite target... wtvr dude. if you don't want to see my posts, ignore me.
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This has nothing to do with scouting directors. It is directly related to PLAYER DEVELOPMENT, which was headed by Kurt Kemp and then Bruce Manno, who Frank brought with him from Baltimore.
 
dak said:
Regarding the comparisons of Vizcaino's value to the Ken Giles trade . . . I don't see us coming close to that. The Phillies did really well on that deal, and Vizcaino just isn't as valuable as Giles. Viz has 1.5 years less control, had had TJ surgery, and a PED suspension. I also think the 2015 offseason version of Giles is a better pitcher than Vizcaino is now (better K / BB rate, longer track record of success, etc.).

It's likely the Braves will trade Vizcaino, and I think they're smart to do so. But the return is very unlikely to be in the same neighborhood as the Giles trade.
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Viz hasn't even gotten to the point where he is arbitration eligible yet. There is still quite a bit of control left, particularly if you want to buy out his arbitration years.
 
dak said:
Regarding the comparisons of Vizcaino's value to the Ken Giles trade . . . I don't see us coming close to that. The Phillies did really well on that deal, and Vizcaino just isn't as valuable as Giles. Viz has 1.5 years less control, had had TJ surgery, and a PED suspension. I also think the 2015 offseason version of Giles is a better pitcher than Vizcaino is now (better K / BB rate, longer track record of success, etc.).

It's likely the Braves will trade Vizcaino, and I think they're smart to do so. But the return is very unlikely to be in the same neighborhood as the Giles trade.
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But there's also a larger/more pressing market for his services. Several teams need BP help immediately and Viz is the best pitcher available, unless it's true that the Yankees want to trade Chapman or Miller.
 
auyushu said:
Scenario's really have nothing to do with it, we wouldn't have wanted to see either player traded period, regardless of the situation.

Also, Pedroia is 32 and signed through 2021 (not to mention on pace for another 4+ WAR season). What on earth are you talking about?

The Red Sox aren't some team full of aging players that need to go for it now, outside of Ortiz most of their key players are in their prime (or perhaps just past it in Pedroia's case). They may decide to go for it now, but they have no overwhelming need to.
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If situations were similar with the Red Sox, and we traded Heyward or Andruw for another Tim Hudson (aka JT), I think a lot of people would have been ok with that (assuming no other top prospects were involved). We traded Salty for Tex and most people were ok with that at the time (they didn't like the rest of the package we gave up).

The point on Pedroia is his career is winding down and it's unlikely he performs better than what he is now, and they are indeed feeling pressure to win now, being that's it's Ortiz's final season.
 
auyushu said:
Well think of it this way. At the time each of them was in AA, would you have been willing to trade Heyward or Andruw for Julio? I know I wouldn't have. With Seager and Urias promoted Moncada is the #1 prospect in baseball, if the shoe was on the other foot I'd be pissed if we did the trade.

Now if they think they can get someone like Julio without giving up Benintendi+ then they are idiots in general.

Either way I'm not saying we shouldn't be holding out for Moncada, because we should at this point (or for something like Benintendi, Espinoza, Devers, Kopech and a couple other prospects for Julio and Viz), but I would say I wouldn't do either trade as a Red Sox fan. Julio has made himself nigh untradeable from a realistic standpoint over the last couple weeks.
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It's funny because all those prospects you listed are/were controllable for 6 years of MLB service time, and are/were ultimately unproven at the MLB level.

Julio is controlled for 4.5 years, and is a proven 3.5+ WAR pitcher at the MLB level who has had one poor half season due to a knee injury.

A team that gets Julio is essentially getting 75% of a prospect's team control with virtually zero chances of him busting. Julio is extremely valuable, even if he isn't a slam-dunk ace, so a price like Moncada/Gallo/Bregman is absolutely the minimum of what it should take to acquire him.
 
Preacher said:
I check every day now to see how the BOS pitchers do.... They've been struggling mightily lately, even Price got shelled.

Goes without saying the more their pitchers stall out the better JT has to look.
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I think Julion's fly ball tendencies are something that will be of concern for the Red Sox. I see Viz and Norris as making more sense for them, though neither is a groundball pitcher.
 
If you want to draw parallels to the Hamels deal (where the Rangers also got pen help in Diekman) as Brian MacPherson did - http://www.providencejournal.com/sp...ould-be-blueprint-for-bostons-pitcher-pursuit - I'd argue that while Julio may not be quite the Pitcher Hamels is, their contracts make them a wash. Vizcaino is a better RP than Diekman. So if you use the blueprint from that trade, the Braves should expect a slightly better return than the Phillies got.

Philadelphia received Texas' #2 (Jake Thompson), #3 (Jorge Alfaro), and #5 (Nick Williams) prospects PLUS two other Top 30 pieces in Jerad Eickhoff and Alec Asher.

Boston's current #2 (Devers), #3 (Benintendi), #5 (Kopech) and extra pieces in Roniel Raudes and Austin Rei would be a similar package. Given the extra control the Sox would be getting over Julio and Arodys, I'd push for a "throw-in". A wildcard like Yoan Aybar.

If Dombrowski would go that far, I have to admit I'd be hard-pressed to say "yes". That's a fast-moving OF who could be ready next season, a power-hitting 3B who could be ready within a couple seasons, a couple more hard-throwers to add to the stable (one of which could be a replacement for Vizcaino soon), and another young C prospect, plus a lottery ticket Mallex-type CF with a 70-grade arm that you could try as a Pitcher if he can't hit. Again, I'm not particularly in favor of trading Teheran at all - but if we got that kind of haul for he and Vizcaino I'm not sure you could say "no".
 
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