Viz and Teheran listed as top trade candidates

Enscheff said:
Keeping Julio and not drastically improving the offense for next season is pointless.

There are 2 courses of action:

1. Keep Julio and improve the offense for next year by signing guys like Desmond (3B), Cespedes (LF) and Castro (C). If the team is not willing to commit to fully retooling the position players of the MLB club, then they need to go to the next option....

2. Give up on 2017, and trade Julio for guys that will be ready around the same time the young pitching in the organization will be ready to anchor the staff (2018 and later). This means guys like Moncada and Bregman are the targets.

Trying to walk some in-between path where they waste Teheran's surplus value by not improving the offense around him would be the the worst possible decision, and is exactly how teams end up in long term mediocrity.
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Here we completely agree. I just don't think #1 is a realistic option for us, not only because we tend to not get in bidding wars, but it'll take more than Des/Ces/Castro to get this team contending -- but if they do keep JT, that's what they need to do.

Totally agree with your second thought, if we don't really try to get better next year, than keeping Julio is pointless.
 
Oklahomabrave said:
I just really ****ing hope we don't hold on to him to apease ticket holders.
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This is my fear. lets hold him to build around him, but don't do anything to get better. I am sorry, but Ozzie and Swanson are not going to save this offense. Hell, I am not sure they will be ready to start next year. We have no clue what the new CBA will be and there is no way Coppy is giving up draft picks for bats. Just don't see him doing that.

If we go into next year with Viz and JT and did nothing to improve the offense, then I am done with the defending FO and ready for a new regime.. For now, I assume they have a plan and I trust they will accomplish it. I have been pleased outside of a few gafs..
 
Enscheff said:
Keeping Julio and not drastically improving the offense for next season is pointless.

There are 2 courses of action:

1. Keep Julio and improve the offense for next year by signing guys like Desmond (3B), Cespedes (LF) and Castro (C). If the team is not willing to commit to fully retooling the position players of the MLB club, then they need to go to the next option....

2. Give up on 2017, and trade Julio for guys that will be ready around the same time the young pitching in the organization will be ready to anchor the staff (2018 and later). This means guys like Moncada and Bregman are the targets.

Trying to walk some in-between path where they waste Teheran's surplus value by not improving the offense around him would be the the worst possible decision, and is exactly how teams end up in long term mediocrity.
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Absolutely right.

I've been saying this for more than a year. If you're not going to do what it takes to fix the offense, then the entire rebuild process falls apart.

But, you also have to ask if the players that are good enough to fix the offense today and in 2017 will still be valuable in 2018 and beyond? I think Desmond is a big question. Cespedes declines in my opinion from where he is now, naturally, but the question becomes how fast and at what cost. I think there is a pretty good risk that you bring in Cespedes, Desmond and Castro and have a much better 2017, a very good 2018 because the pitchers are impacting, then a declining 2019 and a horrendous 2020 due to age and value concerns with contracts of guys like Cespedes and Desmond.

I just think 2018 and later as you put it is a safer play. Trade for hitting prospects, preferably power guys, who will ripen for impact in that late 2017/early 2018 range, don't worry about 2017, and fill holes from the good 2017/2018 FA crop.

BTW, the argument is equally good for trading Freeman...
 
Horsehide Harry said:
Absolutely right.

I've been saying this for more than a year. If you're not going to do what it takes to fix the offense, then the entire rebuild process falls apart.

But, you also have to ask if the players that are good enough to fix the offense today and in 2017 will still be valuable in 2018 and beyond? I think Desmond is a big question. Cespedes declines in my opinion from where he is now, naturally, but the question becomes how fast and at what cost. I think there is a pretty good risk that you bring in Cespedes, Desmond and Castro and have a much better 2017, a very good 2018 because the pitchers are impacting, then a declining 2019 and a horrendous 2020 due to age and value concerns with contracts of guys like Cespedes and Desmond.

I just think 2018 and later as you put it is a safer play. Trade for hitting prospects, preferably power guys, who will ripen for impact in that late 2017/early 2018 range, don't worry about 2017, and fill holes from the good 2017/2018 FA crop.

BTW, the argument is equally good for trading Freeman...
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This thread continues to go around in circles. Lets get this straight.

The guys who want to trade him believe he will bring enough return to move the needle on the offense. Otherwise why trade him?

The guys who want to keep want to keep him unless the return is enough to move the needle on the offense. Then they are okay with trading him.

Nobody wants to trade him just to trade him, and nobody wants to keep him if the return for trading him is huge.

What are we arguing about in this thread???????
 
mfree80 said:
This thread continues to go around in circles. Lets get this straight.

The guys who want to trade him believe he will bring enough return to move the needle on the offense. Otherwise why trade him?

The guys who want to keep want to keep him unless the return is enough to move the needle on the offense. Then they are okay with trading him.

Nobody wants to trade him just to trade him, and nobody wants to keep him if the return for trading him is huge.

What are we arguing about in this thread???????
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I DRIVE A DODGE STRATUS!
 
Anyone see that the Fish sent Paddack to Friars for Rodney.. I seriously hope Coppi didn't turn down a Paddack for Viz deal. because Viz is much better than Rodney.
 
bravesfanMatt said:
Anyone see that the Fish sent Paddack to Friars for Rodney.. I seriously hope Coppi didn't turn down a Paddack for Viz deal. because Viz is much better than Rodney.
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the good thing about this is that if Rodney is worth Paddack, Viz is worth more (and Miller/Chapman worth so much teams might fall back to Vizzy for better value)
 
bravesfanMatt said:
Anyone see that the Fish sent Paddack to Friars for Rodney.. I seriously hope Coppi didn't turn down a Paddack for Viz deal. because Viz is much better than Rodney.
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Maybe he figures we can do better for Viz. Paddack is really intriguing and has put up sick numbers, but he was really old coming out of HS (19 and a half) and is now 20 in A. He also was barely inside the Marlins' top 20 to start the year. He is due for a big jump in rankings, but I think we can do at least that well for Viz and potentially make it be a bat.
 
Preacher said:
Here we completely agree. I just don't think #1 is a realistic option for us, not only because we tend to not get in bidding wars, but it'll take more than Des/Ces/Castro to get this team contending -- but if they do keep JT, that's what they need to do.

Totally agree with your second thought, if we don't really try to get better next year, than keeping Julio is pointless.
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If Swanson and Albies hadn't struggled lately I would have said those 2 plus Desmond, Ces and Castro would have been enough to get this team to 80 wins. Now I'm leaning towards the idea those 2 need more time in the minors, and there is little hope of competing in 2017 no matter who is acquired in the offseason.

If those 2 click in AA over the next few weeks my thinking could change again, and maybe that's what the FO is waiting to see before they seriously shop Teheran and Viz.

One thing is for certain, if/when Julio is traded we can completely write off any and all hope for competing in 2017.
 
CJ9 said:
Heyman said this about Teheran's value today: "Three separate execs opined that Teheran’s trade value was even higher than that of the more accomplished Sonny Gray, at least at the moment, which is what counts."

This is a no brainer. You sell high.
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Is Gray really more accomplish?
 
zbhargrove said:
Is Gray really more accomplish?
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not really, just more hyped of a player.

Gray has 9.1 fWAR (10.5 bWAR) in 569.2 innings

JT has 8.5 WAR (12.0 bWAR) in 739 innings

Gray has the higher career ERA+ but that is pushed by 2015 a lot.... I think if you figure in recent performance and injuries they are pretty equal. Jt has the advantage of contract though , so probably has more value.
 
zbhargrove said:
Is Gray really more accomplish?
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never understood why Gray is considered so much better. JT is one year younger and his best season is just as good as Sonny's best season. JT is having a far better season this year and for his career which is longer has a better BB%/K% and WHiP.. I don't see how Gray is viewed as being head and shoulders better..
 
bravos4evr said:
not really, just more hyped of a player.

Gray has 9.1 fWAR (10.5 bWAR) in 569.2 innings

JT has 8.5 WAR (12.0 bWAR) in 739 innings

Gray has the higher career ERA+ but that is pushed by 2015 a lot.... I think if you figure in recent performance and injuries they are pretty equal. Jt has the advantage of contract though , so probably has more value.
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Yah was more of a rhetorical question. The hype with Gray is annoying. They have both out performed their peripherals and their stats are fairly close at a similar age. Teheran has more of the pedigree, has the contract in favor, and is a better strikeout pitcher.
 
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