Why Now IS The Time To Wipe The Slate Clean

What about Starling Marte? Would the Pirates be interested in trading him for a Gattis and Minor package? Young awesome outfielder who is signed through 2021 at a very reasonable price.
 
Millwood1Hitter said:
I've felt all along that this was the plan, and still believe that even after the lukewarm interest in Lester along with the signing of Markakis.

Besides being a long-term acquaintance and friend, it's pretty apparent why JS wanted Hart to be the one spearheading this project instead of just handing it over to JC. I believe JC has a large influence in the decesions being made, but JS understood that there would need to be some tough decisions made and some fan backlash, and I can't imagine throwing a young inexperienced guy like JC in this instance to the wolves. So Hart was brought in to handle and be at yhge forefront of this all, all the while providing the leadership and people skills to bring back and assemble the best possible scouting and development program and rebuild the entire organization from top to bottom and get back to the "Braves Way."

But it's pretty apparent that the current FO is going to build this thing for '17 around the young core of Freeman, Simmons, Kimbrell, Tehran, and Wood...and use other assets of value that don't fit that timeframe and acquire young talent that fits and compliments that core. So that's what we seen with Heyward, and what I believe we'll see with Upton, Gattis, maybe even Minor.

All the while acquiring other assets that have experience that show a desire and willingness to be here and fill a potential need to be somewhat competitive in the short term. That's where a guy like Markakis fits the bill, he wanted to be here, he should give us decent production in an area of need in the short term and be a complimentary piece in the future, all the while providing a leadership quality that has been missing and add a clubhouse influence that is apparently lacking.
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This makes a hell of a lot of sense. I hope that it's true. It may be a best-case interpretation, but it's plausible.

Signing Markakis fits the stated intention of the FO w/r/t bringing in some veteran presence with "proven" leadership skills. We have our chuckles about grit, maturity, and clutchness (to say nothing of Lairdership), but John-John telegraphed this kind of move a long time ago. I still quibble with a mid-payroll team signing a complimentary piece at that price before the main course is done, but...
 
Millwood1Hitter said:
I think Minor will be dealt in season near the deadline after he has rebuilt his value by reestablishing himself as a quality 2nd-3rd starter, and some contending team will need and want and in turn be dealt for more young controllable players.
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Thats what i would do.

His value is at a low right now.
 
Hudson2 said:
What about Starling Marte? Would the Pirates be interested in trading him for a Gattis and Minor package? Young awesome outfielder who is signed through 2021 at a very reasonable price.
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No, he's locked up dirt cheap, aint happening.
 
There is absolutely a plan. The length of our rebuild will depend on how good the scouting department is in identifying young talen. I would not expect to be even 500 next year.
 
I also want to add, that apart of that plan, the FO is going to also take a few smaller "headscratching" type moves ala Jim Johnson in which we will try to utilize our staff to get a player back on track and rebuild their reputation. It may work, and it may not but if it doesn't little harm is done in the long term. It's a play out of the book that the KC Royals used... ie they acquired Ankiel and Farnsworth for little and rebuilt their value up so at the deadline a contending team (in this case the Braves) comes calling and acquire maybe not a huge piece but a complimentary young controllable piece (in this case a young formidable reliever in Tim Collins.) we've seen McDowell do it before, hopefully he can do it again.

I also believe that's gonna be their philosophy as well with BJ and CJ as well unless someone is willing to take on nearly all of their salary obligations now. Out hope is that Seitzer can at least get BJ back to

say .240, 15 hr type production and some contending team at the deadline will be looking for a complimentary outfielder or in desperate need of production out of CF and we can turn them into more young assets. We've seen bad contracts moved like this before once the player recovered like Alex Rios. Somebody may need a 3rd baseman or a lefty mashing bench piece so CJ may have some value as well. We may not get top prospects but instead guys that may fill a need off the bench or a reliever or depth.

That's a big undertaking for Seitzer, but I think and the FO has the confidence that he can somewhat rebuild them. He is undoubtly the best hitting coach we've had in some time.

Ditto for taking a small stance on injured guys like Medlen and Beachy.

If they recover and come back and be productive, even out if the pen, they may and could have good value at the deadline for a contending team.

And you know where I stand with Minor, he's another that needs to rebuild his value and if he does will command a lot of attention near the trade deadline. And he will be moved not because the FO doesn't like nor believe in him, but again we should have more cost effective and controllable assets going forward by the time 2017 comes around. For the production he will be pricing half out of our price range by that stage of this process.

And somewhere within that timeframe, I believe we will make one big splash in free agency and acquire a big name to fill out the roster or a need. It may be as early as this offseason if a young guy like David Price shows some desire to be here, in which we will then trade again from all the stockpiled pitching that we've acquired in that timeframe to acquire a dynamic bat(s) to fill out the lineup.

Not every move is going to work, and the plan may not work at all, but I believe that this is what's going on all along, and I believe it's going to work although not certain how well...but at least we're working within a framework and have a plan compared to the Wren tenure. At least in the near future we should be back to producing home frown talent and have a replenished system and be able to utilize those assets. And this is coming from a guy that was one of JS's biggest critics since the late 90s and I'm as disappointed as any about losing guys like Heyward buy let's give these guys a chance and see what happens. It's pretty apparent in my mind that it wasn't gonna happen (contending for a World Series) the way we were currently constructed so hopefully we can reload and be ready to legitimately contend by the time the new stadium opens. It may backfire, but let's go trough the process and see the final product before we jump to conclusions.
 
Millwood1Hitter said:
I also want to add, that apart of that plan, the FO is going to also take a few smaller "headscratching" type moves ala Jim Johnson in which we will try to utilize our staff to get a player back on track and rebuild their reputation. It may work, and it may not but if it doesn't little harm is done in the long term. It's a play out of the book that the KC Royals used... ie they acquired Ankiel and Farnsworth for little and rebuilt their value up so at the deadline a contending team (in this case the Braves) comes calling and acquire maybe not a huge piece but a complimentary young controllable piece (in this case a young formidable reliever in Tim Collins.) we've seen McDowell do it before, hopefully he can do it again.

I also believe that's gonna be their philosophy as well with BJ and CJ as well unless someone is willing to take on nearly all of their salary obligations now. Out hope is that Seitzer can at least get BJ back to

say .240, 15 hr type production and some contending team at the deadline will be looking for a complimentary outfielder or in desperate need of production out of CF and we can turn them into more young assets. We've seen bad contracts moved like this before once the player recovered like Alex Rios. Somebody may need a 3rd baseman or a lefty mashing bench piece so CJ may have some value as well. We may not get top prospects but instead guys that may fill a need off the bench or a reliever or depth.

That's a big undertaking for Seitzer, but I think and the FO has the confidence that he can somewhat rebuild them. He is undoubtly the best hitting coach we've had in some time.

Ditto for taking a small stance on injured guys like Medlen and Beachy.

If they recover and come back and be productive, even out if the pen, they may and could have good value at the deadline for a contending team.

And you know where I stand with Minor, he's another that needs to rebuild his value and if he does will command a lot of attention near the trade deadline. And he will be moved not because the FO doesn't like nor believe in him, but again we should have more cost effective and controllable assets going forward by the time 2017 comes around. For the production he will be pricing half out of our price range by that stage of this process.

And somewhere within that timeframe, I believe we will make one big splash in free agency and acquire a big name to fill out the roster or a need. It may be as early as this offseason if a young guy like David Price shows some desire to be here, in which we will then trade again from all the stockpiled pitching that we've acquired in that timeframe to acquire a dynamic bat(s) to fill out the lineup.

Not every move is going to work, and the plan may not work at all, but I believe that this is what's going on all along, and I believe it's going to work although not certain how well...but at least we're working within a framework and have a plan compared to the Wren tenure. At least in the near future we should be back to producing home frown talent and have a replenished system and be able to utilize those assets. And this is coming from a guy that was one of JS's biggest critics since the late 90s and I'm as disappointed as any about losing guys like Heyward buy let's give these guys a chance and see what happens. It's pretty apparent in my mind that it wasn't gonna happen (contending for a World Series) the way we were currently constructed so hopefully we can reload and be ready to legitimately contend by the time the new stadium opens. It may backfire, but let's go trough the process and see the final product before we jump to conclusions.
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Millwood, Voice of Reason.

Seriously, great posts.
 
I'm soooo not in the mood for us to rebuild. 2 seasons is long as sh*t...I don't understand why, at a minimum, we can't push to extend Justin. Spend some fckn mobey for god sakes.
 
Based on what has happened so far, it looks like a big part of the plan is predicated on giving CJ and Melvin regular playing time for at least half of the 2015 season. Given their presumably low current value, I have no problem with that. Since they are owed a total of $25.45M in 2017, it is not going to be an easy task for the front office to field a really strong team for 2017 if there isn't a recovery in their valuation.

In other threads, I have made the point that there is a distinction between moving the salaries of those two guys and improving our situation at third and center. While I can understand that moving their contracts might not be feasible at this point, I think we can still work to find upgrades at center and third. But if you are going to give those two another three months or more to re-establish their value, then it makes sense to defer finding an upgrade. This is leading to a situation where we are likely to enter the 2015 season keeping our fingers crossed that CJ and/or Melvin can turn things around. There are various scenarios (depending in part on whether the team can remain in contention) as to what will happen at mid-season if that doesn't happen.
 
jsebe10 said:
I'm soooo not in the mood for us to rebuild. 2 seasons is long as sh*t...I don't understand why, at a minimum, we can't push to extend Justin. Spend some fckn mobey for god sakes.
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mobey?
 
Excuse my ignorance but if we are hoping that CJ, BJ, and Minor have bounce back years so that we can get more value out of them wouldn't that make the 2015 Braves a contending team? If that's the case, why blow the whole thing up?
I've been lurking around this forum for a long time and have been following/posting since the Fastball.com days. It's been fun seeing what other people have to say. Just my two cents but this organization needs to either **** or get off the pot.
 
OkieBrave said:
Excuse my ignorance but if we are hoping that CJ, BJ, and Minor have bounce back years so that we can get more value out of them wouldn't that make the 2015 Braves a contending team? If that's the case, why blow the whole thing up?
I've been lurking around this forum for a long time and have been following/posting since the Fastball.com days. It's been fun seeing what other people have to say. Just my two cents but this organization needs to either **** or get off the pot.
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Trust me -and I think I can speak for most on here- it's tough not truly knowing the direction our club is going. With that being said, blowing our roster up is not an option for two main reasons:

1. We have a YOUNG core that is extremely talented and just that core alone (if they play to their expectations) is capable making us playoff contenders. The core I am speaking of is: Freeman, Simmons, Kimbrel, Teheran, Wood, Minor, and Bethancourt. That is a very talented -albeit young and inexperienced- group of guys who are capable of being special for many years to come.

2. With the FO goal of being legitimate contenders in 2017 when we open SunTrust Park they can't afford to lose the interest of our fan base with it being so close to the time when they want that park to be energized and sold out on a nightly basis. The only way to do that in my opinion, is to walk a fine line of keeping a competitive team on the field and at the same time getting the organization ready to contend come opening night 2017. I would imagine that they have the mindset of: Let's keep our goal of being legit contenders and division favorites by 2017 but all the while trying to earn a wildcard spot in 2015-2016, because if you can get in the playoffs, from there you never know.

Just my take on the matter, but I can say with certainty I am very impressed with the way John Hart has jumped in and not been afraid to shake things up. He's bringing a breath of fresh air to this organization and that has been long overdue.
 
cajunrevenge said:
You had me until trade Minor for Drury.
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With Arizona's logjam of corner guys (especially since it appears they're going to give Tomas a look at 3B) and their focus on acquiring pitching, it'd make all kinds of sense IMO.

You're aware that Drury slashed .299/.362/.510/.872 with 23 bombs and 42 2Bs while reaching AA (and not flinching) last season, right?
 
Here's a number to consider

36.45M

That's how much Melvin, CJ, and Markakis are scheduled to be paid in 2017. Over a quarter of payroll. Those 3 players will be 31, 31, and 33 in 2017. It is not being unduly pessimistic to project that the collective output of those players in 2017 will be close to zero WAR.

We are going to need some luck with respect to being being to get out of some of those contractual obligations by 2017.

Perhaps some construction delays can be arranged for and the move date for the new stadium can be moved back a year.
 
If our organizational talent was in as bad a shape as the Cubs when Theo took over, I think we would have HAD to blow it up. I personally would have been okay to see them go into 100% rebuild mode instead of trying to thread the needle like the are now. We were likely staring down the barrel of a 3 year rebuild starting in 2016 had we kept both Jason and Justin and traded prospects to make a run at it in 2015.

Two factors that I think influenced JS / Hart to not blow it up: (1) we have a nice core of young players that were just extended, and (2) business and marketing considerations. Regarding the second reason, it would be interesting to know how much more money the organization will make by fielding what is likely a .500ish team that stays in the race until mid-September versus a 70 win team that is out of it for most of the second half.
 
jsebe10 said:
I'm soooo not in the mood for us to rebuild. 2 seasons is long as sh*t...I don't understand why, at a minimum, we can't push to extend Justin. Spend some fckn mobey for god sakes.
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2 seasons is a fine price to pay for another decade of winning.
 
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