Braves donate Justin Upton to Padres for prospects
- Thread starter mikewon
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Tapate50
Well-known member
That Jason Heyward, without a shadow of a doubt, does NOT love baseball.
That payroll is going to increase and we feel we can pay both one of Heyward or Cespedes and Johnny Cueto, Jordan Zimmerman, or David Price?
I won't go so far as to say I'm completely sold that that's the case, but I do get the sense that we're going to see payroll increased as we move into the new park - I'm just not sure it'll be enough to pay market value for TWO headliners.
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
I felt all along that only one of Justin/Jason was likely to be signed to a long-term deal. There was a small chance both could be retained, and a larger chance neither would be.
With respect to the specific scenario where neither is extented but one kept to play out 2015 and the other traded, here are some possible reasons things might turn out that way:
1) Management might have planned to trade only one with the choice being mainly driven by what was being offered in return.
2) Management might have planned to trade only one with the choice mainly driven by management's preference for one over the other.
3) Management might have planned to trade both but the return for only one turned out to be satisfactory.
While both very good players, Jason and Justin are quite different, especially with regard to the offense/defense mix of their value. The one subtlety that I find myself dwelling upon is the fact Jason can play center. But that might have been overridden by some of the considerations listed above.
dak
Well-known member
My two cents is that they liked Jason as an overall player better than Justin . . . both on the field and off the field. Jason was lauded a bit more for his high-effort style of play and they attempted to extend Jason. Neither of those two things are true when it comes to how they handled Justin.
I believe they simply got a deal that worked for them on Jason and haven't yet on Justin. I still believe Justin will be traded and am supportive of doing so (with obvious caveat of getting the right return).
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
The only thing that surprises me a bit is that the Heyward move (regardless of whether or not one believes the Braves got appropriate value for him) was made so quickly and Hart's approach with J. Upton and Gattis has been very patient. I'm all for patience and letting the markets fall where they may before moving guys around willy-nilly.
For the record, I was for moving J. Upton and keeping Heyward. I think Heyward has a better all-around game and that the return on J. Upton would be higher than it was for Heyward.
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
I have reason to believe this doesn't make sense for the Pads. They are retooling and unlikely to contend in 2015. Does a one-year rental make sense? Would it make sense for a team like them to trade an asset they would have under control for multiple years for a one-year rental? Also they currently have Kemp, Quentin and Seth Smith at the corner outfield spots.
Not trying to re-open the heated discussion about whether we got appropriate value for Jason, I think it's becoming more evident that we did now that the initial shock has subsided - and that's why Hart pounced so quickly. As days pass, I consistently hear more and more "experts" expressing that we not only "won" the deal, but that we won pretty handily IF Jenkins comes close to reaching his ceiling. Whether this has anything to do with word getting out about what Jason's reps were looking for in an extension or other reasons (that we possibly haven't heard), I have no clue. I can say that a good friend of mine who has been a Cards fan for 35 years was extremely upset when I told him the numbers we were hearing, and he's quite unhappy in retrospect because he says there's NO WAY they meet those demands - it's just not the "Cardinal Way" - considering they didn't go there with Pujols.
The flip side to that could be that that deal sent the message to most of the other interested teams that Hart is dead serious when he says that he's not trading Justin or Evan UNLESS he gets what he wants - whether that's Walker/Gausman/Bundy or the receiving team also taking on a big chunk of B. J. or Johnson's contracts.
The absolute worst case scenario would be that we've added Miller and Jenkins, "replaced" Jason to some extent (unless his offense finally takes that next step) with a less expensive option, still have Gattis for four years, pick up another pick to help rebuild the system if Justin isn't extended, AND have $27.5 million to spend on an OF next winter.
That ain't all bad IMO.
This is the question that's been eating at me the entire time - not who would play for San Diego if they pulled the trigger - is the holdup partly due to whether Hart would take Smith's contract back in a deal? That could be the EXACT thing that has Hart pushing to have Johnson included in a deal with them, and would actually line up pretty well for both sides. IF Ross is enough of a Pitcher return for us, wouldn't Ross/Smith/Gyorko for Justin and Johnson make tons of sense for both sides???
Kemp replaces Smith in RF, Justin plays LF, and Johnson plays 3B - opening up 2B for Spangenberg and giving them TWO really good super-utility guys in Amarista and Solarte.
Smith plays LF here, Gattis remains behind the plate and can platoon with him at times to get more ABs, Gyorko replaces Johnson at 3B, and Ross becomes our 5th starter.
Russ2dollas
10 yr, $185 million Extension
I'm not sure that is true. I think Hart wants to turn Heyward and JUp into controllable, high upside, big league ready starting pitchers. They held out on Heyward until they got Miller who they think fits that criteria and they seem to think Jenkins does too.
Feedback through the media sounds like teams like the rangers are balking at giving up that type of pitcher for Jup. So no trade.
Therefore it's not a hurry to dump Heyward but a fact that the Cardinals provided what Hart wanted and the Cardinals wanted Heyward.
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
Why would adding Johnson to the mix be attractive for the Padres when the guy they have to play third (Solarte): 1) was better than Johnson in 2014, 2) projects to be better than Johnson in 2015, and 3) costs much less.
I can see why adding him to the trade is attractive to us. But it doesn't add anything for the other team.
In this hypothetical trade we are sending them a one-year rental and a player with a contract that brings his net value down to zero. It simply doesn't add up looking at it from their perspective.
VirginiaBrave
Well-known member
Yeah if you could somehow combine the two, Justin's offense with Jason's defense you would really have something.
There's not enough money to improve the offense as it needs to be. Only way to free up money is to move our expensive guys. And no one wants BJ or CJ without AZ Justin or Gattis attached to them.
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
I think the most likely story is the front office decided it would be best to move one of Jason/Justin. Maybe even both. They might have like Jason more, but he's the one who attracted the offer they were looking for.
Btw did anyone see the recent quote from Hart that he wanted a "palatable" team for 2015. That's fine with me. Teams that project as palatable sometimes do quite well. Both the Orioles and Royals projected as .500 teams at the start of 2014. Given the core of players currently under contractual control for the next few years, a total rebuild was never in the cards.
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
We have spent some money on the offense this offseason (Markakis, Callaspo, Toscano). There are a lot of different ways to build a winning team, and at the same time no magic formula.
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
I don't disagree. I'm not saying what's right or wrong here. The Cardinals did step up with a decent offer. I don't know if there would have been a better offer coming. The speed with which it happened was the surprise to me.
Pretty simple actually. It means that we got the package we wanted for Heyward but couldn't get the package we wanted for Upton. You don't trade valuable players just to trade them.
Tapate50
Well-known member
We are stuck with Chris Johnson people. The only way he is movable is taking garbage in return and that isn't the point of this.
We need him to have a good first half with the new hitting coach and ship him off for a reliever prospect at the deadline. That's best case scenario imo.
We need him to have a good first half with the new hitting coach and ship him off for a reliever prospect at the deadline. That's best case scenario imo.
Russ2dollas
10 yr, $185 million Extension
IIRC DOB quoted Cap as saying it came together in 48 hrs. I'm sure they had feelers out before hand but they got serious really fast, no doubt.