Im sure some if it is, bc theat is an extremely low BABIP.
Career k/9: 6.00
2 years in Atlanta 7.37, 7.67 (highest 2 rates of his career)
SB Nation Profile of Leo Mazzone
- Thread starter MadduxFanII
- Start date
Im sure some if it is, bc theat is an extremely low BABIP.
Career k/9: 6.00
2 years in Atlanta 7.37, 7.67 (highest 2 rates of his career)
Arguing it is pretty dumb, I agree. It is clear as day that pitchers performed better under Leo when they pitched in other places.
Fixed it for you.
sturg33
I
thethe never disappoints.
I remember the braves trashing Marcus Giles - and by Braves - I mean the beat writers who's job it is to get fans supporting the team.
I'm a little sick and tired of hearing about the amazing clubhouse this year. passively aggressively attacking last year's clubhouse.
I remember the braves trashing Marcus Giles - and by Braves - I mean the beat writers who's job it is to get fans supporting the team.
I'm a little sick and tired of hearing about the amazing clubhouse this year. passively aggressively attacking last year's clubhouse.
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
Well when you have Maddux (perfect Mechanics) Glavine (doesn't throw hard, see Barry Zito on how evne bad mechanics can survive lighter tossing) and Smoltz (bad mechanics but tough as nails) as your bulk of your rotation, not to mention healthy doses of guys like Millwood who also had strong mechanics. Leo was great, but I think it was his pairing with Bobby that made him as great as he was.
The greatness of Leo is oversstated. Still a damn good pitching coach based on the results but there is more than one man to the Atlanta Braves success with pitchers.
Smoltz had bad mechanics early on in his career, but I'd say after 1997 his mechanics worked out better. I know he had TJ in 2000, but that might've had to do with his exploitive mechanics early on.
Glavine had sound mechanics. Not perfect like Maddux, but still very sound.
Glavine had sound mechanics. Not perfect like Maddux, but still very sound.
Remember that Leo was a student Johnny Sain. It was that approach, throwing between starts to build arm strength, which was an important part of the organizational pitching philosophy. Could they have done as well with Bruce Dal Canton? Doubt it.
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
I remember Smotlz's mechanics, they weren't horrible trainwreck mechanics like say Medlen's or Beachy's or Hanson's. But they had issues. Probably would say comparable to like maybe Waino's to pick on a current guy. But you are right, his mechanics did get better with age. That's why I think coming back from TJ that he had and pitching th eben, he did have better mechanics.
Glavine I didn't watch a ton when I knew how mechanics worked, and I don't want to base them on clips that I don't have all the right stuff with. But it looks fine. I used Zito as an extreme example, because Barry has terrible mechanics but hasn't had any arm issues yet, aside from just sucking.
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
I think there's a flaw to pitching too much between starts as well. If you have bad mechanics you're not strengthening your arm but adding load issues. I think long tossing is something pitchers should do much more of if it's not a regular between start thing. As it's something that actually does build arm strength.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
Simpson straight up bashed last year's team a coupe of nights ago—called them quitters. Didn't mention any names, though . . . which is kind of a punk move, if you ask me. You want to call someone out, call them out.
Leo had a lot of success with vets coming to the team—Burkett, Wright, Mike Remlinger, Chris Hammond. I know that the Braves had good minor-league pitching instruction, but I don't think those guys experienced it.
Leo was far from the only reason for the pitchers' success, but to minimize his contribution is silly.
JohnAdcox
Brian Jordan's New BFF
I think, and I include this first clause to make it clear that I am going purely on opinion and (at best) casual observation, that Leo’s great under-appreciated contribution was his unorthodox throwing program — two bullpens between starts instead of one, Camp Leo, etc. That may or may not have any any impact at all on a pitcher’s effectiveness, but (again, unscientific opinion) it does seem to have reduced injuries. Seems worth looking in to, at least to me.
Wait, is there still the thought among Braves fans that Mazzone was some kind of genius? I thought everybody basically believed now that he was a good pitching coach who was way overrated because of what he was working with.
Have you heard that guy talk on the radio? Holy crap, he has an IQ of about 80. He was good for us, but his time in Baltimore opened my eyes that he wasn't the magician people thought he was.
And while I actually agree with him on treatment of a pitcher's arm, there's no major league club that would allow him to help institute it right now.
Have you heard that guy talk on the radio? Holy crap, he has an IQ of about 80. He was good for us, but his time in Baltimore opened my eyes that he wasn't the magician people thought he was.
And while I actually agree with him on treatment of a pitcher's arm, there's no major league club that would allow him to help institute it right now.
Think of our argument as an experiment with a control and variable. The control is Leo Mazzones impact. The variable is the organization he is with. With Atlanta he was considered great and with Baltimore he was awful. I wonder what was more important to Leo's success. Leo's ability or the Braves organization?
Well, baseball isn't rocket science....have you heard Chipper talk? (many want him here as a hitting coach) How about Fredi? Roger? If a pitching coach had to solve complex math equations, I would be concerned with his IQ.
The following are the starting pitchers Leo had in Baltimore:
Bedard
Rodrigo Lopez
Kris Benson
Daniel Cabrera
Adam Loewen
Jeremy Guthrie
Steve Traxchel
Brian Burress
So what are you trying to say here? Because before you said that he made Burkett from a trash pitcher to a really good one.
Daniel Cabrera had his best years under Leo and 2 years later was out of the majors.
Erik Bedard had his best years under Leo
Im sure some others did as well, but I'm not going through whole list. He improved guys, but doesn't mean they were great.
I'm sure Bedard didn't go downhill because he was injured. Not a chance. Cabrera was still awful even under the tutelage of Leo.
Again, Leo was a good pitching coach but the pitching success the Braves enjoyed while Leo was there had more to do than just Leo. However, he was part of it and deserves some of the credit but not all.
Leo didn't really have much time in Baltimore, did he? I think Perlozzo got the boot relatively quick and Mazzone actually ended up awkwardly hanging on for a little while afterwards.
All I know is that the Braves never seemed to have a problem turning absolute trash into serviceable pieces when he was pitching coach:
Shane Reynolds
Albie Lopez
Chris Hammond
Darren Holmes
Jaret Wright
John Thomson
Russ Ortiz
Jorge Campillo
Jorge Sosa
And that list goes on and on.
They also seemed to know when to dump young pitchers at the height of their value: Damian Moss, Odalis Perez, Horacio Ramirez
All I know is that the Braves never seemed to have a problem turning absolute trash into serviceable pieces when he was pitching coach:
Shane Reynolds
Albie Lopez
Chris Hammond
Darren Holmes
Jaret Wright
John Thomson
Russ Ortiz
Jorge Campillo
Jorge Sosa
And that list goes on and on.
They also seemed to know when to dump young pitchers at the height of their value: Damian Moss, Odalis Perez, Horacio Ramirez