yeezus
It's OVER 5,000!
I'd rather have Hamels on his contract than Price on whatever contract he's going to get. He's going to get more money and a lot more years than what Hamels has left. Hamels' contract is really appealing right now.
Trades You'd Make At The Drop Of A Hat...
- Thread starter clvclv
- Start date
I'd rather have Hamels on his contract than Price on whatever contract he's going to get. He's going to get more money and a lot more years than what Hamels has left. Hamels' contract is really appealing right now.
As I explained, I don't expect that's the plan, but I'm not foolish enough to completely discard the idea out-of-hand. I don't have any inside information about what they intend to do this winter, but do know they have the flexibility to do that if they choose to. You, on the other hand, apparently KNOW something the rest of us don't since you're speaking in absolutes.
Horsehide Harry
<B>Mr. Free Trade</B>
Before you dismiss out of hand, all I ask is that you think about it....
From Atlanta: 1B Freddie Freeman, C AJ Pierzinski
From Houston: RHP Mark Appel, OF Domingo Santana, OF Brett Phillips, 1B AJ Reed
Reasoning: Houston needs a 1b like Freeman badly and his contract is pretty good long term. They also need help at catcher.
As for Atlanta, Freeman while a good solid player isn't really great, certainly not elite, even at his position. He tends to get extra credit for his defense, which is superb. However, 1B is where you get offense and Freeman is only "ok" in that department when it comes to his peers. And while I consider him top ten at 1b, he's not top five. He's certainly not an embarrassment better than good but not great 1B. That's not a knock since some of the best bats in baseball call 1B home.
1B is one of the few positions where FA can typically be had or players can move from other positions and be adequate.
Moving Freeman brings you back another top arm and two top 100 Outfielders and hopefully the 1B of the future.
From Atlanta: 1B Freddie Freeman, C AJ Pierzinski
From Houston: RHP Mark Appel, OF Domingo Santana, OF Brett Phillips, 1B AJ Reed
Reasoning: Houston needs a 1b like Freeman badly and his contract is pretty good long term. They also need help at catcher.
As for Atlanta, Freeman while a good solid player isn't really great, certainly not elite, even at his position. He tends to get extra credit for his defense, which is superb. However, 1B is where you get offense and Freeman is only "ok" in that department when it comes to his peers. And while I consider him top ten at 1b, he's not top five. He's certainly not an embarrassment better than good but not great 1B. That's not a knock since some of the best bats in baseball call 1B home.
1B is one of the few positions where FA can typically be had or players can move from other positions and be adequate.
Moving Freeman brings you back another top arm and two top 100 Outfielders and hopefully the 1B of the future.
keithlaw
Playing the Waiting Game
I disagree with that. Since 2013, Freeman is 3rd among MLB 1B and 7th overall in runs produced. He's an elite hitter.
Braves1976
It's OVER 5,000!
I don't think Freeman is going anywhere anytime soon.
zbhargrove
Well-known member
Freddie Freeman is most certainly elite and any other claim is downright stupid.
Gotta agree here - Freeman isn't the prototypical 1B bopper-type, but he's certainly an "elite" hitter. Freddie is Joey Votto minus his MVP year when he hit more balls over the fence - pretty much what Votto is today, and I think most would still consider him an elite hitter.
I've said all along that I don't believe there are any absolutes given what Hart & Company have achieved thus far. That said, while I think there could conceivably be someone that could come along with enough need and desire to put together a package that might convince them to part with Simmons, I've got the feeling that Freddie is as close to "untouchable" as any player they have under contract. They committed to him as the face of the franchise and he rewarded them by signing what will eventually turn out to be a below-market deal even if you only consider him "average" overall at his position. We've got internal options to replace Andrelton, even if they're inferior defensively (who isn't???). We have no one remotely close to the type of hitter Freeman is, much less what he might become if he's put in more of a position where they ask him to hit more balls over the fence. That's a HUGE gamble to expect at least one of Reed, Santana, or Phillips to turn into what Freddie is now - even with the lack of HRs.
I can't see something like that from the Astros' side simply because they're already pushing for frontline pitching - they've already got plenty of offense, and it just doesn't make sense (to me) for them to move someone like Appel even if he only develops into a #2 or #3.
The problem here is that you can't compare Hamels' contract to whatever Price eventually signs for. If the Braves wanted Hamels at his figure, he'd cost them AT LEAST 3 Top 10 prospects or something like Miller and two Top 10 prospects - the Phillies aren't stupid enough to trade him within the division for less than that (and I might not take that if I were in their shoes). I'd be more than happy to pay Price $7 million more a year and get to keep the prospects personally.
This is the other reason I'd disagree. If you believe that's the case (and I won't argue that), why wouldn't you just offer that package to the Phillies and go get Hamels if you're Jeff Luhnow?
Heyward
<B>Voted Worst Poster <br>'13, '14, '15 (Co-Winner
Anything could happen but with all the pitching they've added, i'd be very shocked if they signed two aces.
Let's do some math.
At least 2 of Julio, Wood, Miller will be at the top.
And Wisler, Perez, and Manny at the 4-5 spot.
They're gonna move 2-3 of them and sign two aces?
I could see them move Wood for a bat, and add a FA SP, but two?
I would be quite shocked to be honest.
That was the only point I was making - that while shocking (to me as well), I'm not willing to say they won't do that. As you mention, what might they get if they decided to go that route?
For instance, say you sign Price and Zimmerman and then turn around and make Miller and Wood available for bats. Now you're looking at...
Price/Zimmerman/Teheran/Banuelos/Wisler
Would Wood and Simmons get you Tulo with the Rockies eating some of his money? Could Miller, Folty, Maybin, and Bethancourt get you Carlos Gomez and Jonathon Lucroy? I honestly don't know those answers, which is why I won't absolutely dismiss the idea that they might consider it.
Horsehide Harry
<B>Mr. Free Trade</B>
Freddie's a very good but not elite hitter. I said that in the original post and I stand by it. Elite is Miguel Cabrera, Albert Pujols in his prime (and the way he's currently playing), Goldschmidt, Teixeira in his prime (and the way he's currently playing).
Freddie belongs with the group of Jose Abreu, Joey Votto, Adrian Gonzalez, Prince Fielder, Rizzo and just ahead of the likes of Adam Lind & Chris Davis.
I guess you could argue that he is anywhere as high as #3 or as low as #7 at 1B. Taking how the group is playing so far this year, I would put him currently at #6 or #7.
And, yes his defense should count. But, it counts less at 1st than anywhere else. That's why great hitters who are challenged fielders get moved to 1B. It is also a position of small instance of injury therefore the home of bat wielding old horses.
Freeman is not Chipper (who was an elite bat at 3B). He's not top three at his position year in and year out and destined for the hall of fame. That's nothing to be ashamed about.
But, the point is, I am NOT trying to argue that he isn't any good. Far from it. What I am saying is that it's quite possible that he is more valuable as a trade piece currently to the Braves.
Horsehide Harry
<B>Mr. Free Trade</B>
You need to do that in reverse order. Make Miller and Wood available NOW, before the glut of starting pitching in the offseason. Capitalize on the in-season desperation otherwise you devalue your assets due to circumstance.
Horsehide Harry
<B>Mr. Free Trade</B>
I don't follow your point. Hamels is a pitcher while Freeman is a 1B. The Astros could use both and might want both. But has Philadelphia approached them? And asked for what? Correa+. No way at this point do I think the Braves could pry Correa away.
Now, if they would do that package I outlined above for Freeman but wanted to do a Correa for Miller as well, then I would pull the trigger in a heartbeat.
The point is that they need frontline pitching (and have been tied to Hamels) and definitely don't need offense nearly that badly. The package you proposed is likely enough to get them Hamels (if he indeed would agree to be traded to Houston), so why wouldn't you offer it for the "Ace" you need instead of Freeman when you don't "need" a 1B? You said yourself that they're relatively easy to find (or transition someone from another position to fill that need) - why not make Gattis your "adequate" 1B and add Hamels to the top of your rotation with those pieces?
Correa is more untouchable than Freeman IMO. What does he have to do with anything? Again, I don't believe in absolutes, but if Jeff Luhnow is willing to listen to offers for Correa, Springer, or Jose Altuve, he should be fired immediately IMO.
Horsehide Harry
<B>Mr. Free Trade</B>
The sum has to be better than the part or you don't do it. A package LIKE I outlined above PLUS the addition of a stopgap FA 1B like Chris Davis in the offseason would be a sum bigger than the part IMO. Therefore it is a trade that I would do at the drop of a hat....
The thing is, there is no written law that says the team in 2017 needs to be even recognizable with the team of 2015 or 2014 or even 2016. I don't advocate moving players just to move them. You move one or more with the idea that the return is better - might be prospects in return, newfound financial freedom, whatever, or some combination.
To me, if you are committed to Freeman as being THE offensive face of the franchise then you have to be counting on significant improvement in his 27, 28 yo seasons. Otherwise he gets expensive for his production assuming he stays steady.
But, I don't think Freddie has imposed himself as the face of the franchise. I think he took on the mantle because he was essentially the last man standing. So, I don't really see a ton of off the field value there either.
Are there a ton of fans out there buying tickets saying "I have to get to the ballpark to see that Freddie Freeman?"
I don't think so.
Why do you assume that? Neither the Rockies or Brewers are going to sniff the playoffs, and likely aren't going into firesale mode until this winter (when there are more bidders). You don't trade Miller and Wood before you're sure you're replacing them with frontline SPs. Which Pitchers that will make up that "glut" you mention can either of those teams afford (that are better than Miller and Wood) do you think they're going to bid on? Definitely not the "Aces" - neither team has the financial flexibility.
Horsehide Harry
<B>Mr. Free Trade</B>
I don't disagree. They might want to do the Hamels trade. But, the Phillies are a mess right now and seem to be in gridlock until the new sheriff is in town so maybe they aren't open to talk until that happens.
As for Correa, I meant that maybe the Hamels discussion has happened and Philly is asking for Correa (which as you say should be untouchable and as say if he's not I would gladly trade Miller for him).
Horsehide Harry
<B>Mr. Free Trade</B>
You have to look at the FA availability after the season coming up and you will see FA: Greinke, Price, Gallardo, Cueto, Zimmerman (who at best Miller equates to) then have Kazmir, Latos and many others in the second tier where you would have to place Wood.
Any team in the offseason who is in the market for pitching is going to look FA first because it only costs them money (and maybe a pick). To trade for a starter generally costs you money and talent and either forces short term uncertainty if the player is approaching FA or locks you into a contract that came from another Team.