2016 Payroll

Heyward said:
It does but if a player is elite on defense and an average hitter, that mean they deserve 15-20 mil a year?
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In this market? You bet. And in Heyward example he is a little better than just an average hitter. In this market elite defenders with average defense are getting upwards of 30 million. That's just the way it is.
 
Tapate50 said:
I think I've actually come full circle on Heyward. I think he would fit great out there for us. As long as the pay wasn't asinine like we believed this offseason, I'd be fine offering him 140/ 7 yr deal
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I would as well. I wouldn't want to go a full 10 years though. But I would max out at like 22-23 million per though if it meant a shorter deal.
 
Heyward ship has sailed, i'd rather get an ace if we were to sign a big ticket this winter.

And trade for a bat, and sign someone, wouldnt mind Cespedes.
 
thewupk said:
In this market? You bet. And in Heyward example he is a little better than just an average hitter. In this market elite defenders with average defense are getting upwards of 30 million. That's just the way it is.
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Yes, and the fact he's 26 hitting FA is rare, not many players hit FA at that age.
 
Tapate50 said:
I think I've actually come full circle on Heyward. I think he would fit great out there for us. As long as the pay wasn't asinine like we believed this offseason, I'd be fine offering him 140/ 7 yr deal
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Absolutely. Especially now that Hart has gotten the financial house in order.
 
Some people are just still thinking this is mid 2000's market.

Kershaw gets 30 million. Randy Johnson was getting 16 million in 2005.

Heyward should get 18-20 million a year in this market, although I wouldn't be surprised if he got up to 23-25.
 
Heywood said:
Some people are just still thinking this is mid 2000's market.

Kershaw gets 30 million. Randy Johnson was getting 16 million in 2005.

Heyward should get 18-20 million a year in this market, although I wouldn't be surprised if he got up to 23-25.
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Is he going to get it? Yes. I never said he wouldn't.

Should he get it? No. His performance doesn't indicate that he is that valuable to a team regardless of the market.

I used the Francouer comparison not to say that they are equals in any way except to illustrate that the perception that Heyward is currently anything special offensively is incorrect.

I have always admitted that his defense in RF was very good and that he was a good baserunner but not an elite speed guy who's going to steal you a lot of bases.

The ONLY way he's worth $20+M per year over 7-8 years for a team like the Braves is if he develops into a much, MUCH better offensive player.

I know that there are those in love with Heyward and there is nothing anyone will say that will shake that love. But, for a team like the Braves, limited in payroll, a paper superstar is not a good option.
 
Horsehide Harry said:
Is he going to get it? Yes. I never said he wouldn't.

Should he get it? No. His performance doesn't indicate that he is that valuable to a team regardless of the market.

I used the Francouer comparison not to say that they are equals in any way except to illustrate that the perception that Heyward is currently anything special offensively is incorrect.

I have always admitted that his defense in RF was very good and that he was a good baserunner but not an elite speed guy who's going to steal you a lot of bases.

The ONLY way he's worth $20+M per year over 7-8 years for a team like the Braves is if he develops into a much, MUCH better offensive player.

I know that there are those in love with Heyward and there is nothing anyone will say that will shake that love. But, for a team like the Braves, limited in payroll, a paper superstar is not a good option.
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That's your opinion that he doesn't warrant that kind of contract. And again if all that Heyward had going for him what his current offensive production like Francoeur then you might be right. But his 2015 hitting stats aren't the only reason teams will be looking to pay him big bucks and you seem to think that's all that matters. That's not how clubs operate anymore. This isn't 2000 anymore.
 
thewupk said:
That's your opinion that he doesn't warrant that kind of contract. And again if all that Heyward had going for him what his current offensive production like Francoeur then you might be right. But his 2015 hitting stats aren't the only reason teams will be looking to pay him big bucks and you seem to think that's all that matters. That's not how clubs operate anymore. This isn't 2000 anymore.
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Just because Heyward will probably get 20-25 mil a year doesnt mean he deserves it.
 
Heyward said:
Just because Heyward will probably get 20-25 mil a year doesnt mean he deserves it.
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Deserving something is totally dependent on your meaning of it. Does any player 'deserve' multi millions to play a game? If Heyward gets 20-25 million then that would indicate his market value and I think that's what most people are arguing. What is Heyward value on the open market. It's certainly way more than the 8-10 million that someone posted on here last night.
 
thewupk said:
Before you say something like that. Post his numbers with RISP and not just RBI totals. IF that's the case then you might have a point.
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It's not how I like to spend my free time. However, when he drove in 173 (twice), 183 & 166, it's safe to assume that his BA with RISP was quite respectable.
 
thewupk said:
That's your opinion that he doesn't warrant that kind of contract. And again if all that Heyward had going for him what his current offensive production like Francoeur then you might be right. But his 2015 hitting stats aren't the only reason teams will be looking to pay him big bucks and you seem to think that's all that matters. That's not how clubs operate anymore. This isn't 2000 anymore.
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You seem knowledgable on defensive WAR, so maybe you can help me here.

The way I understand it, dWAR accounts for differences between various players at a given position relative to each other. A player with a 2.0 WAR is two games better than replacement level.

My question is, does dWAR also account for the relative importance of the different positions? I think we can all agree that defense is not as important at LF or 1B as it is in CF or SS, for example. Thinking about it intuitively, albeit without a full understanding of how the stat is calculated, you wouldn't stash an Evan Gattis in CF just because your current LF has a 2.0 dWAR and your current CF is replacement level on defense.

I'm seriously trying to learn here - not making a judgment on the Heyward is mediocre/ Heyward is awesome debate...yet.
 
Horsehide Harry said:
Defense is important but vastly overrated for RF. RF make their money with their bats, specifically their power bats (or should). Jeff Francouer has one of the best RF arms in the game, makes exciting plays at the plate and plays pretty good defense but no one thinks he's elite because his bat sucks. Heyward is nowhere near the depths of Frenchy level but he's not a $150-200M player. He cut way down on his strike outs and lost his power. Could the power come back? Maybe. Potentially.

Think about it this way: take a RF who is.270-.280, gonna hit 15hr, strikes out 100 times a year, hits 30 2B, steals you 15-20 bases and has an OPS in the mid .700 and plays average defense. What is that guy worth? Would you be willing to go 7 years $84M for him? I wouldn't but let's assume the answer is yes. Then take Heyward, same stats but with excellent defense. Is he worth 7 years $154M? To me, the answer is definitely no. But, let's assume the answer is yes. Then you are paying $10M extra per year for excellent RF defense as opposed to average RF defense.

Does that make sense?
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I agree, Harry. I'm all for valuing defense, but the weighting is way off. Good illustration.
 
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