How do the Braves find bats for 2017 and beyond?

NinersSBChamps said:
Never said I had all the answers or any of them. To actually even mention trading Freeman without getting legit ML players is definitely a clear bad idea.
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The Braves traded Doyle Alexander, by far their best pitcher at the time, for a AA hurler named John Smoltz. They did it not because they didn't like Alexander but because they were rebuilding.

It does happen but you better be right. That's where the trust in the scouts has to come in.
 
The Braves have been making an effort to shed contracts that reach beyond the 2016 season, and Heyman writes to “look for them to take offers on Julio Teheran” this offseason. Clearly, Atlanta would be selling low on a talented arm that comes with a very reasonable contract. Teheran signed a six-year, $32.4MM extension prior to the 2014 season, but he’s logged a 4.57 ERA due in part to diminished control in 2015.
 
Horsehide Harry said:
The Braves traded Doyle Alexander, by far their best pitcher at the time, for a AA hurler named John Smoltz. They did it not because they didn't like Alexander but because they were rebuilding.

It does happen but you better be right. That's where the trust in the scouts has to come in.
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I get your point, but that's a poor example. Doyle Alexander was not their best pitcher (or at least, not "by far" our best pitcher). And he was 36 years old. The two scenarios couldn't be any more dissimilar.

Not to mention, we need hitting, so trading away a really good, young hitter who is under contol for a long time at a relatively team friendly deal, isn't too smart imo
 
I was told our pitching would be traded for bats. But if it takes Alex Wood and Peraza to get freaking Olivera. I don't even want to know what it would take to get another Justin Upton.
 
zitothebrave said:
I was told our pitching would be traded for bats. But if it takes Alex Wood and Peraza to get freaking Olivera. I don't even want to know what it would take to get another Justin Upton.
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Your not even going to consider the possibility that the Olivera deal will turn out like both Renteria trades? What would he have to hit to make the trade worth it for you?
 
Chico said:
The Braves have been making an effort to shed contracts that reach beyond the 2016 season, and Heyman writes to “look for them to take offers on Julio Teheran” this offseason. Clearly, Atlanta would be selling low on a talented arm that comes with a very reasonable contract. Teheran signed a six-year, $32.4MM extension prior to the 2014 season, but he’s logged a 4.57 ERA due in part to diminished control in 2015.
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Would be stupid to trade him
 
goldfly said:
Would be stupid to trade him
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Essentially, there is someone on this board who will tell you it is STUPID to trade X Brave. Fans often believe in "their" players and value "their" players way beyond reality. And fans invest emotional and sometimes financial capital in following particular players. But, I also think they sometimes lose sight of the TEAM concept where no individual is ever as important as the TEAM.

I have always taken the position that if the trade of one or more individuals off the TEAM will improve the short and/or long term outlook of the overall team then it is at least worth considering and likely worth doing, it doesn't matter who the individual is.

In the late 80's Dale Murphy was all the Braves had. He was an icon, one of the better players in baseball, squeaky clean on and off the field and the only draw for a team putting 5,000 butts in the seats every home game. The Braves absolutely refused to trade him under any circumstances until it was far, FAR too late. They ended up essentially giving him away to the Phillies for a hand full of magic beans - a middle reliever and not a particularly good middle reliever (in an era when middle relief was much less appreciated than it is today) and two prospects who were nowhere near any top 100 lists. At one point, the Pirates had been willing to trade a young outfielder from their minor league system named Barry Bonds for him. Think about that.
 
zitothebrave said:
I was told our pitching would be traded for bats. But if it takes Alex Wood and Peraza to get freaking Olivera. I don't even want to know what it would take to get another Justin Upton.
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In fairness it's really more like Wood got us Olivera and Peraza, Johnson and Avilan got us Bird, 1st round pick, Paco Rodriguez and 20ish million bucks.
 
Horsehide Harry said:
Essentially, there is someone on this board who will tell you it is STUPID to trade X Brave. Fans often believe in "their" players and value "their" players way beyond reality. And fans invest emotional and sometimes financial capital in following particular players. But, I also think they sometimes lose sight of the TEAM concept where no individual is ever as important as the TEAM.

I have always taken the position that if the trade of one or more individuals off the TEAM will improve the short and/or long term outlook of the overall team then it is at least worth considering and likely worth doing, it doesn't matter who the individual is.

In the late 80's Dale Murphy was all the Braves had. He was an icon, one of the better players in baseball, squeaky clean on and off the field and the only draw for a team putting 5,000 butts in the seats every home game. The Braves absolutely refused to trade him under any circumstances until it was far, FAR too late. They ended up essentially giving him away to the Phillies for a hand full of magic beans - a middle reliever and not a particularly good middle reliever (in an era when middle relief was much less appreciated than it is today) and two prospects who were nowhere near any top 100 lists. At one point, the Pirates had been willing to trade a young outfielder from their minor league system named Barry Bonds for him. Think about that.
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I totally agree with your general premise. It is difficult for me to imagine many scenarios where we trade Freeman to improve the team. It is definitely not a position of strength within the organization and I am more of a proponent of dealing from strengths. If Freeman could net us Polanco and Glasnow from the Pirates, I just don't see a situation like that happening.
 
weso1 said:
In fairness it's really more like Wood got us Olivera and Peraza, Johnson and Avilan got us Bird, 1st round pick, Paco Rodriguez and 20ish million bucks.
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Careful now. That kind if thinking is not generally appreciated around here. The trade must be a disaster... regardless of how it turns out.
 
Oklahomabrave said:
I totally agree with your general premise. It is difficult for me to imagine many scenarios where we trade Freeman to improve the team. It is definitely not a position of strength within the organization and I am more of a proponent of dealing from strengths. If Freeman could net us Polanco and Glasnow from the Pirates, I just don't see a situation like that happening.
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Actually we just wasted a prime year of Freeman, Simmons, Miller and everyone else for a team that was not competitive. And it could happen again in 2016. Why not move those guys and get players who are not in their prime now but could contribute when we are competitive again.
 
Horsehide Harry said:
Essentially, there is someone on this board who will tell you it is STUPID to trade X Brave. Fans often believe in "their" players and value "their" players way beyond reality. And fans invest emotional and sometimes financial capital in following particular players. But, I also think they sometimes lose sight of the TEAM concept where no individual is ever as important as the TEAM.

I have always taken the position that if the trade of one or more individuals off the TEAM will improve the short and/or long term outlook of the overall team then it is at least worth considering and likely worth doing, it doesn't matter who the individual is.

In the late 80's Dale Murphy was all the Braves had. He was an icon, one of the better players in baseball, squeaky clean on and off the field and the only draw for a team putting 5,000 butts in the seats every home game. The Braves absolutely refused to trade him under any circumstances until it was far, FAR too late. They ended up essentially giving him away to the Phillies for a hand full of magic beans - a middle reliever and not a particularly good middle reliever (in an era when middle relief was much less appreciated than it is today) and two prospects who were nowhere near any top 100 lists. At one point, the Pirates had been willing to trade a young outfielder from their minor league system named Barry Bonds for him. Think about that.
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i have a hard time imagining getting anything that actually helps this team win sooner than later in a trade with Julio and his very nice contract

nsacpi said:
Actually we just wasted a prime year of Freeman, Simmons, Miller and everyone else for a team that was not competitive. And it could happen again in 2016.
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i also agree with this

wasting 2 years of good years of good players with our plan. it's weird

not saying to trade you listed either though
 
Oklahomabrave said:
I totally agree with your general premise. It is difficult for me to imagine many scenarios where we trade Freeman to improve the team. It is definitely not a position of strength within the organization and I am more of a proponent of dealing from strengths. If Freeman could net us Polanco and Glasnow from the Pirates, I just don't see a situation like that happening.
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I doubt it as well but don't think it should be completely discounted because it is perceived as unlikely. Many here talk like they wouldn't trade Freeman for Mike Trout (obvious exaggeration).

The point was that there does happen to be a few limited FA options such as Chris Davis who could likely replace some of what Freeman brings at some overall fraction of the cost in terms of money and years AND 1B is generally an easier hole to fill as opposed to say 3B or LF right now.

So the question is: If you could trade Freeman and Bethancourt and bring back three near ready bats who would fill other holes on the team (let's say OF Meadows, 1B/OF Bell, C McGuire from the Pirates) AND replace Freeman with FA bat Chris Davis would it be worth doing?

I think so. Of course, that assumes that the Pirates would be willing to do the trade.

But why stop there?

You then trade Miller to Colorado for Dahl, McMahon and Murphy.
Trade Teheran to the Cubs for OF MicKinney and C Contreras.

Not all the prospects you bring back will pan out but some will. That's why you are looking for quantity as well as quality.

Then you sign Price and Samardzija as a FA to lead your rotation and fill in from the pitching prospect pile you've got.

In 2016 you have (and don't forget that it's 2017 and beyond that is MOST important)

You end up with a rotation of: Price, Samardzija, Wisler, Folty, ManBan or Perez with a number of pitching prospects like Sims, Touissant, etc. in reserve.
Your pen is: Vizcaino, Rodriguez, Withrow, Grilli, Marksberry, McKirahan, Simmons, Moylan etc. maybe a veteran or two like Aardsma, Detwiler, Frasor

CF: Bourn (Maybin traded) with Meadows, Dahl, McKinney, Mallex Smith as potential options.
2B: Jace Peterson with Olivera a potential long term option as well as Albies if Simmons stays at short
RF: Markakis with leftovers from CF being long term options as well as Davidson and Peterson
1B: Chris Davis with Bell and Davidson being long term internal options
3B: Olivera with McMahon, Ruiz and Riley being long term options
LF: Swisher with leftovers from CF and RF being options
C: AJ (for veteran leadership) & Lavarnway in 2016, with Contreras, Murphy, McGuire and Herbert being long term options
SS: Simmons with Albies and Camargo being long term options

You sign a bench like was done this year with guys like Kelly Johnson who are flexible and maybe need to re-establish their careers.

That 2016 team isn't much better than the 2015 version. But the 2017 team sets up very nicely.

2017 could be:

CF Dahl
2B Olivera
LF Meadows
RF Markakis
1B Davis
3B McMahon
C Murphy
SS Simmons

and in 2018 it could be

CF Dahl
2B Olivera
LF Meadows
RF Bell
1B Davis
3B McMahon
C Murphy
SS Simmons
 
zitothebrave said:
I was told our pitching would be traded for bats. But if it takes Alex Wood and Peraza to get freaking Olivera. I don't even want to know what it would take to get another Justin Upton.
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People are still whining about this?

We got back more than Olivera. While they aren't huge names, they aren't fodder. And the draft pick is pretty big as well, as it will be top 30. Consider the Dodgers just drafted Walker Buehler 24th overall, and is currently ranked 6th, above the ever so coveted Austin Barnes. What if the package we received was Olivera, Buehler, Bird, and Paco? Would that early be a terrible return?
 
nsacpi said:
Actually we just wasted a prime year of Freeman, Simmons, Miller and everyone else for a team that was not competitive. And it could happen again in 2016. Why not move those guys and get players who are not in their prime now but could contribute when we are competitive again.
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The problem with this is, unless you trade for other players in their prime or sign FAs, then your always in that cycle of wasting players prime years until you hit on enough prospects at one time.
 
Carp said:
The problem with this is, unless you trade for other players in their prime or sign FAs, then your always in that cycle of wasting players prime years until you hit on enough prospects at one time.
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It seems to me you need to be realistic about where the best talent lies in your farm system. For us it is with a remarkable group that is currently aged 17-18. In some ways this is painful and inconvenient. Painful because they are so young and will take years to reach the majors. Inconvenient because the front office has stated that it wants to have a strong contending team in place for the opening of the new stadium in 2017.
 
Horsehide Harry said:
I doubt it as well but don't think it should be completely discounted because it is perceived as unlikely. Many here talk like they wouldn't trade Freeman for Mike Trout (obvious exaggeration).

The point was that there does happen to be a few limited FA options such as Chris Davis who could likely replace some of what Freeman brings at some overall fraction of the cost in terms of money and years AND 1B is generally an easier hole to fill as opposed to say 3B or LF right now.

So the question is: If you could trade Freeman and Bethancourt and bring back three near ready bats who would fill other holes on the team (let's say OF Meadows, 1B/OF Bell, C McGuire from the Pirates) AND replace Freeman with FA bat Chris Davis would it be worth doing?

I think so. Of course, that assumes that the Pirates would be willing to do the trade.

But why stop there?

You then trade Miller to Colorado for Dahl, McMahon and Murphy.
Trade Teheran to the Cubs for OF MicKinney and C Contreras.

Not all the prospects you bring back will pan out but some will. That's why you are looking for quantity as well as quality.

Then you sign Price and Samardzija as a FA to lead your rotation and fill in from the pitching prospect pile you've got.

In 2016 you have (and don't forget that it's 2017 and beyond that is MOST important)

You end up with a rotation of: Price, Samardzija, Wisler, Folty, ManBan or Perez with a number of pitching prospects like Sims, Touissant, etc. in reserve.
Your pen is: Vizcaino, Rodriguez, Withrow, Grilli, Marksberry, McKirahan, Simmons, Moylan etc. maybe a veteran or two like Aardsma, Detwiler, Frasor

CF: Bourn (Maybin traded) with Meadows, Dahl, McKinney, Mallex Smith as potential options.
2B: Jace Peterson with Olivera a potential long term option as well as Albies if Simmons stays at short
RF: Markakis with leftovers from CF being long term options as well as Davidson and Peterson
1B: Chris Davis with Bell and Davidson being long term internal options
3B: Olivera with McMahon, Ruiz and Riley being long term options
LF: Swisher with leftovers from CF and RF being options
C: AJ (for veteran leadership) & Lavarnway in 2016, with Contreras, Murphy, McGuire and Herbert being long term options
SS: Simmons with Albies and Camargo being long term options

You sign a bench like was done this year with guys like Kelly Johnson who are flexible and maybe need to re-establish their careers.

That 2016 team isn't much better than the 2015 version. But the 2017 team sets up very nicely.

2017 could be:

CF Dahl
2B Olivera
LF Meadows
RF Markakis
1B Davis
3B McMahon
C Murphy
SS Simmons

and in 2018 it could be

CF Dahl
2B Olivera
LF Meadows
RF Bell
1B Davis
3B McMahon
C Murphy
SS Simmons
Click to expand...

I think the risks in this approach is that the market will dictate fairly long and expensive contracts for guys like Davis, Price and Samardzija. Those deals might be fine for their first two or three years, but towards the end they will really handicap the team.
 
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