Olivera

auyushu said:
You do realize the stats you are using to judge them right now include park factors right? Wood is in his first full year as a starter in the majors. He hasn't had time to decline, he's still developing as a pitcher.

Wood has about the same control as Fiers and a better FIP. Wood has a lower K rate but a much better HR rate and ground ball rate. At best Fiers is equal to Wood in performance. And when you have two guys who are equal in value and are 6 years apart in age it's not even a close comparison.

And you need to do some research rather than relying on your gut. Wood is 33rd in the majors in FIP among qualified starters, and in a tie for 38th in WAR.
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I know era+ does include park factors. However, it doesn't account for "intangible" things like team defense or games against slugging teams as opposed to lighter hitting teams.

And, I think it's a bit of a cop out to say this is his first "full year" as a starter. I guess it depends on how you define that - 30 starts? 35 starts? all starts and no relief appearances?

In 2014 Wood pitched 171.2 innings and had 170 strike outs while giving up 151 hits with a K to BB ratio of 3.78 all in 24 starts out of 35 appearances.
In 2015 Wood has pitched 148.1 innings and had 111 K's while giving up 159 hits with a K to BB ratio of 2.22 all in 25 starts out of 25 appearances.

Now, his HR ratio is better in 2015 at .6 HR/9 as opposed to .8 HR/9.

His era+ in 2013 was 120, 2014 it was 131 and so far this year it is 102.

His velocity is also down.

So, while I do agree that statistics are important and should not be ignored, I think there is still a place in the game for "gut" judgments.
 
auyushu said:
Not sure what you are scoffing at, he was rated #38 by MLB, #54 by BA, and #44 by fangraphs before the season started. So not a consensus top 40 pick, but definitely top 50ish. Now if you wanted to have what Harry was smoking when he said Fiers was equal to Wood in value, now that would be understandable.
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Just because he was rated highly doesn't mean he's any good. He hasn't developed any of the offensive tools he needed to improve.

He doesn't walk or have power. His MLEs are somewhere around .600-.650 OPS. Do you dispute any of that?

To me, he doesn't have enough OBP (.290 -.310) to lead off. So you have to hit him eighth. So he's a good fielder with speed. There are plenty of those.

Oh, and the Fiers/Wood thing. I think Harry got backed into a corner and doubled down. Like Donald Trump without the spectacular combover.
 
auyushu said:
Not sure what you are scoffing at, he was rated #38 by MLB, #54 by BA, and #44 by fangraphs before the season started. So not a consensus top 40 pick, but definitely top 50ish. Now if you wanted to have what Harry was smoking when he said Fiers was equal to Wood in value, now that would be understandable.
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Perhaps he was drinking?
 
GovClintonTyree said:
Just because he was rated highly doesn't mean he's any good. He hasn't developed any of the offensive tools he needed to improve.

He doesn't walk or have power. His MLEs are somewhere around .600-.650 OPS. Do you dispute any of that?

To me, he doesn't have enough OBP (.290 -.310) to lead off. So you have to hit him eighth. So he's a good fielder with speed. There are plenty of those.

Oh, and the Fiers/Wood thing. I think Harry got backed into a corner and doubled down. Like Donald Trump without the spectacular combover.
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Who says I don't have a comb over better than the Donald? You're fired.
 
GovClintonTyree said:
Perhaps he was drinking?
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Not drinking. Cold medicine. Head feels as big as a basketball (and no, that ISN'T normal).

But, you're right. I threw the Fiers comment out there without really thinking it through, although I don't think it is as much of a slam dunk to Wood as some say. The big difference being age. We know for sure how old they are. We DON'T know for sure how healthy either will ultimately be, even though to me at least, Wood shows some fraying around the edges with his velocity being down some, his hits/inning being up and his K/BB ratio being off.

But, I've got myself into a position of arguing against my original point which was the Braves could have sent the package that they sent to LA instead to Houston for the return that the Brewers got from Houston. Wood being far in advance of Fiers actually would reinforce that opinion. But, I was trying to keep it real.
 
Horsehide Harry said:
Not drinking. Cold medicine. Head feels as big as a basketball (and no, that ISN'T normal).

But, you're right. I threw the Fiers comment out there without really thinking it through, although I don't think it is as much of a slam dunk to Wood as some say. The big difference being age. We know for sure how old they are. We DON'T know for sure how healthy either will ultimately be, even though to me at least, Wood shows some fraying around the edges with his velocity being down some, his hits/inning being up and his K/BB ratio being off.

But, I've got myself into a position of arguing against my original point which was the Braves could have sent the package that they sent to LA instead to Houston for the return that the Brewers got from Houston. Wood being far in advance of Fiers actually would reinforce that opinion. But, I was trying to keep it real.
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I agree with the overall idea. I'd rather to have two good young OF prospects over Olivera and a 1st round pick. However I think we got a decent return. It may be because I lived in S. Florida but I see Dontrelle Willis and Emilio Bonifacio in Wood and Peraza. Those guys peaked very young due to a limited celing.
 
Chico said:
I agree with the overall idea. I'd rather to have two good young OF prospects over Olivera and a 1st round pick. However I think we got a decent return. It may be because I lived in S. Florida but I see Dontrelle Willis and Emilio Bonifacio in Wood and Peraza. Those guys peaked very young due to a limited celing.
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I like the Willis/Bonifacio comparison.
 
GovClintonTyree said:
Just because he was rated highly doesn't mean he's any good. He hasn't developed any of the offensive tools he needed to improve.

He doesn't walk or have power. His MLEs are somewhere around .600-.650 OPS. Do you dispute any of that?

To me, he doesn't have enough OBP (.290 -.310) to lead off. So you have to hit him eighth. So he's a good fielder with speed. There are plenty of those.

Oh, and the Fiers/Wood thing. I think Harry got backed into a corner and doubled down. Like Donald Trump without the spectacular combover.
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I didn't say I liked Peraza as a player (though I like him more than Jace), just that he was a top 50ish prospect who would have a fair bit of value for a team needing a middle infielder. You say there are plenty of those, but he'd be an upgrade at 2B for many teams (including our own right now IMO)

The problem in these discussions is you are confusing your personal feelings on these players with their actual value, and that's not the same thing at all.
 
Until Wood goes deeper into games, he's a 3-4, thats a fact.

Havent read all the thread, but looking at this page, seems to be a Wood discussion
 
Fiers and Wood are kinda similar.

Both middle of the rotation pitchers at this moment.

But yall can continue to think Wood is a TOR pitcher.
 
Heyward said:
Fiers and Wood are kinda similar.

Both middle of the rotation pitchers at this moment.

But yall can continue to think Wood is a TOR pitcher.
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I agree with you on this although I do see the other side that Wood is significantly younger and IF he doesn't get hurt and the BOTH continue at their current level of effectiveness then career wise Wood is more valuable long term (although not necessarily to the current team since both are similar in service time).
 
Heyward said:
Until Wood goes deeper into games, he's a 3-4, thats a fact.

Havent read all the thread, but looking at this page, seems to be a Wood discussion
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Saying Wood is a #4 is a little unfair. 4 and 5 starters are generally average MLB starters at best. I don't think that describes Wood at all.
 
thewupk said:
Saying Wood is a #4 is a little unfair. 4 and 5 starters are generally average MLB starters at best. I don't think that describes Wood at all.
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Heyward is aware of this, I showed him that he was way off on where Wood stands as a starter a week or two ago. He's either trolling or has dementia I guess. But at any rate, Wood is in the top 40 of starters in both FIP and WAR, that's not a low end #3/ high end #4 starter, that's a low end #2/high end #3 starter.
 
thewupk said:
Saying Wood is a #4 is a little unfair. 4 and 5 starters are generally average MLB starters at best. I don't think that describes Wood at all.
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Wood can barely make it to 6 innings but he's an ace.
 
auyushu said:
Heyward is aware of this, I showed him that he was way off on where Wood stands as a starter a week or two ago. He's either trolling or has dementia I guess. But at any rate, Wood is in the top 40 of starters in both FIP and WAR, that's not a low end #3/ high end #4 starter, that's a low end #2/high end #3 starter.
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Dont care about that, until he can go deeper into games, hes a 3-4.

But you can use your numbers that have no basis, i ca name 50 starters better than Wood right now, maybe more.
 
Heyward said:
Dont care about that, until he can go deeper into games, hes a 3-4.

But you can use your numbers that have no basis, i ca name 50 starters better than Wood right now, maybe more.
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To be a 3-4 there would have to be over 100 starters better than him. Get to working on that list.
 
Here is a list of pitchers who are currently 25 and under and their ranking based on WAR over the past three years:

1. Gerrit Cole (24) 9.0 WAR
2. Sonny Gray (25) 8.4 WAR
3. Nathan Eovaldi (24) 6.9 WAR
4. Julio Teheran (24) 6.6 WAR
5. Michael Wacha (24) 6.4 WAR
6. Alex Wood (24) 6.4 WAR
7. Shelby Miller (24) 6.1 WAR

This is why I was not a big fan of the trade. The Braves had three of the top 7 starting pitchers who are 25 years of age or younger. All three guys are established and should continue to improve. To me, that was a great core to build around, not tear apart.
 
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