Johnny Cueto

[Millwood1Hitter]

Im completely out on Cueto. He went down with an elbow issue earlier this year which is probably a pre-cursor to TJ. Though he seems he would fit into the new "Braves way" with elbow issues.

I would actually go for the Shark. He has been okayish in some career seasons and dominant in others. I think placing him in a fair pitching park like the Ted would help his numbers support a contract in the $15mil to $17mil range that he will probably get.

Man, speaking of inequities in this nation. While people like me have to slave away to try to make headway and pay the bills, we're talking about paying a garbage pitcher 15-17 million a year and calling it a potential bargain. Thats rediculous. Just think we got the "prime" years out of arguable the best pitcher ever, and the certainly the best in his era, with Maddux in the 1990's for basically 6 million a year. Swallow that for a moment. Unbelievable how things have gotten so out of hand.

 

[zbhargrove]

Fools Gold

Better to go with Samardzjia and Latos. Cheaper and more likely to be worth the money IMO.

Samardzjia is absolutely awful. I have no idea why everyone is so enamored with him. Sure he has the raw stuff, but he's 30 years old and has never been able to put it together. His few solid years were a mirage if you look at his peripherals. Why would it magically happen now? Latos has been a train wreck this year... why not go with Leake who's basically the same pitcher with better results at around the same price? Cueto is fools gold? He's done multiple seasons what Samardzjia has never come close to doing and he's a year younger with better raw stuff.

 

[Horsehide Harry]

I'm all for a nice debate but my goodness, take a second and re-read your statement.

Schilling failed his first two starting opportunities, admittedly at a very young age. Then he was moved to the pen where he spent a couple of years and was traded twice before settling in as a starter for Philadelphia. He was a bit of a head case early, which is why teams were so willing to trade him. He really didn't become consistently dominant until he was 29, although he had shown flashes and had to work through some injury.

Kevin Brown finished 6th as ROY as a 24 yo, then had a couple of OK years, then finished 6th for the Cy Young as a 27 yo, then had a couple more ok years, then signed with Florida and became a perennial All Star, MVP and Cy Young threat.

Samardzjia started pitching full time late, was rushed to the ML by the Cubs where he did ok as a reliever early (26 innings) then tanked for two years while he learned how to pitch, then became a solid middle reliever for a year then transitioned to starting at 27. He had two ok years, then an All Star year (essentially equivalent to this years Shelby Miller year) and was traded twice in less than a year as part of two different rebuilding efforts (Cubs, A's) to a bad team in a bad park where he had a pretty bad year.

However, he pitched more innings this year than any Brave, his walk rate was 1 per 9 innings lower than any Brave SP, his K rate was 6.9 per 9 IP, just behind both Miller and Teheran. His K rate was significantly down from previous years by about 1.5 per 9 which is something you would have to look at and his HR given up was up significantly, although the park has something to do with that.

Do I think he's a future HoF? No. However, he does remind me of the type stuff and career trajectory of Brown and Schilling. Will he ever have the success they had? I doubt it. Those 2-4 years at the beginning of his baseball career lost playing football will be hard to overcome. BUT, he doesn't have to be as good as Schilling and Brown ultimately were for a signing this offseason to be successful.

I'm looking for value and opportunity and I see that in Shark.

 

[Chico]

I don't think Leake is an option. He'll more than likely resign with San Francisco.

Samardzjia hated his time in Chicago when they were losing, and he's a very selfish player. I don't think the Braves want him or he wants to come to the Braves.

I also feel that Cueto has an injury lingering and won't be a smart sign for us.

 

[Horsehide Harry]

Samardzjia is absolutely awful. I have no idea why everyone is so enamored with him. Sure he has the raw stuff, but he's 30 years old and has never been able to put it together. His few solid years were a mirage if you look at his peripherals. Why would it magically happen now? Latos has been a train wreck this year... why not go with Leake who's basically the same pitcher with better results at around the same price? Cueto is fools gold? He's done multiple seasons what Samardzjia has never come close to doing and he's a year younger with better raw stuff.

Cueto is listed at 5'11" (probably 5'10") and 220 lbs (probably 235). He's had injury issues off and on. He looked like he was struggling with arm issues the second half in KC (maybe he worked through that and it never comes up again).

I think he's fools gold because I think someone is going to pay him second tier money and years (behind Greinke and Price) and regret it almost immediately and throughout the term of the contract. He's going to get 5-6 years at an AAV of $20M or better. That's fools gold.

Does that mean I think he's garbage? No, I don't. I just don't think he's a good long term investment.

 

[Enscheff]

The only 2 mega FAs that have a chance at earning their contracts are Heyward and Price, and Price is a long shot since he will get 7 years.

Upton is going to age poorly and will be a defensive liability the last couple years of his deal. Grienke will be signed too late into his 30s just so LA can keep him. Cespedes is going to get way too much based off his inspired play with the Mets. Cueto is going to be an absolute disaster of a contract. Zimmerman just isn't that good, but will be paid like an Ace by whomever misses out on Price. Gordon has a chance to be a decent signing, but I think someone is going to go crazy and pay him too much for good defense in LF.

The bargains are going to come from the next tier of pitchers. Some team is going to wait until late January and get a legit MOR guy on a 2-3 year deal at ~$12M per year and be ecstatic about it. I hope that team is the Braves.

 

[clvclv]

With the excessive amount of quality starting pitchers available thru free agency this coming offseason, coupled with the struggles Cueto went through after being traded to KC (also eliminates the Q.O) and all on top of the fact that the Braves have stated their desire to obtain a veteran starter, I would like to make a run a him. It's obvious that we won't/can't make a run at Price/Geinke (and possibly Zimmerman as well) and looking at the next tier, I like Cueto. Yes I know there are "injury risk" but if his medicals check out I truly believe he can become a steal. Teams may be hesitant to give him a long-term deal with his late season struggles and "injury risk" and that may benefit the Braves. When healthy Cueto can be that "ace" we are always seeming to lack and put him into our rotation, it could be a way to get a quality veteran, top-of-the-rotation type arm at a lower price (AAV) than others. A rotation that looks like this can be really good...

1. Johnny Cueto

2. Julio Teheran

3. Shelby Miller

4. Mike Minor

5. Matt Wisler

1.) Would you be comfortable giving Cueto a 4yr/$65-75m deal or a 5yr/$80-90m deal?

2.) Would Cueto accept something like that?

Just giving a topic for discussion...

1.) Yes.

2.) No.

Mike Leake will get that. Afraid there's absolutely no chance. Cueto will get $20 million+ AAV - just no way around it IMO.

 

[Russ2dollas]

someone is going to be left standing when the SP musical chairs finishes.

i think all of these mid tier guys have big plus and minus.

I think we will wait until there are some guys running out of options and then we'll move on one. 4 years is the max I'd go. Maybe we could get two if we sign one for 4 years and then another for a pillow contract 1-2 year deal with a clause that we won't do a qualifying offer.

 

[cajunrevenge]

Greinke = Maddux. Sign him. He will be an ace through his late 30's. Also a pretty good hitter. Had 2 HR this year.

 

[bravesfanMatt]

Greinke = Maddux. Sign him. He will be an ace through his late 30's. Also a pretty good hitter. Had 2 HR this year.

so how long do you sign him for? even if he is Maddux, that only gives a team maybe 4 years of great starting pitching. Do you think Zack is going to sign a 4 year deal this off season?? I am more in favor of not signing 32 year olds to long expensive contracts. Pass on Zack...

 

[thewupk]

Man, speaking of inequities in this nation. While people like me have to slave away to try to make headway and pay the bills, we're talking about paying a garbage pitcher 15-17 million a year and calling it a potential bargain. Thats rediculous. Just think we got the "prime" years out of arguable the best pitcher ever, and the certainly the best in his era, with Maddux in the 1990's for basically 6 million a year. Swallow that for a moment. Unbelievable how things have gotten so out of hand.

Cueto is a garbage pitcher? You can think salaries have gotten out of hand but I'd rather pay the players instead of that money going to owners.

 

[Horsehide Harry]

Cueto is a garbage pitcher? You can think salaries have gotten out of hand but I'd rather pay the players instead of that money going to owners.

Owners are going to get their money. Fans think that somehow because it's a game that the business shouldn't make money.

What you want is an owner who is capable and ready to re-invest in their product and brand to build value ie. build a winner. George Steinbrenner was a guy like that. Does anyone think George DIDN'T make money? Or Ted Turner?

The other end of the spectrum you've got guys like Bud Selig, a guy whose pockets weren't that deep to start with, who bought a team he could afford which correlated to a small market team and then immediately began to scream about the inequity of baseball. Selig and others like him are the ones who led the charge on collusion (taking money right out of the pockets of players) and forcing strikes and lock outs. I think it's funny that he gets credit for "saving" baseball when it was him and people like him that almost killed it.

As for the dollars going to players, I don't have an issue with it. But, I don't think it's smart as a franchise to throw money away simply because you have it to spend. Instead of giving Cueto $17-$20M, I would rather see hat money go elsewhere, maybe to multiple players.

 

[clvclv]

Man, speaking of inequities in this nation. While people like me have to slave away to try to make headway and pay the bills, we're talking about paying a garbage pitcher 15-17 million a year and calling it a potential bargain. Thats rediculous. Just think we got the "prime" years out of arguable the best pitcher ever, and the certainly the best in his era, with Maddux in the 1990's for basically 6 million a year. Swallow that for a moment. Unbelievable how things have gotten so out of hand.

This is what I've always felt was one of the silliest points ever made.

Maddux made $5,875,000 in 1993 when the highest-paid player in the game was Bobby Bonilla at $6,200,000. Maddux was the fourth highest-paid player that season. The average MLB salary was $1,104,932. Maddux made more than 5 times what the average player made. http://www.baseballchronology.com/Baseball/Years/1993/Payroll.asp

When he re-signed in 1998 he then climbed back up the list and made $9,600,000 that season, making him the third-highest paid player in the game behind Gary Sheffield (who made $14,936,667). The average MLB salary was $1,383,555. Maddux made more than 7 times what the average player made.

Maddux got a $1 million raise for 1999 and made $1,349,794 less than the highest paid player that year (Albert Belle). The average MLB salary was $1,555,536. Maddux made 7 times what the average player made.

Now fast-forward to 2015. The average salary for a MLB player was $4,250,000. http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/04/major-league-baseball-average-salary-meal-money-2015-mlb

If Maddux were making the same 7 times the average player's salary, he would've made $29,750,000 last season. Zack Greinke - arguably the best Pitcher in baseball THIS season and in his prime was tied for the third highest-paid player in the game at $25 million. Kershaw made $32,571,428. http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/rankings/

Looks like salaries are right about the same place they were when Maddux signed his deals, but why use the numbers to back up your argument? If it bothers you that much why don't you quit paying for cable or satellite TV and watching the games and/or quit buying tickets, jerseys, $10 beers, and $7 hot dogs???

Compare apples-to-apples 2 million people will NEVER buy tickets to come see you or me do our jobs. Even I get paid more than what the average person that does what I do for a living. Not 5-7 times more, but then I can't throw a baseball like Maddux could either.

 

[Millwood1Hitter]

This is what I've always felt was one of the silliest points ever made.

Maddux made $5,875,000 in 1993 when the highest-paid player in the game was Bobby Bonilla at $6,200,000. Maddux was the fourth highest-paid player that season. The average MLB salary was $1,104,932. Maddux made more than 5 times what the average player made. http://www.baseballchronology.com/Baseball/Years/1993/Payroll.asp

When he re-signed in 1998 he then climbed back up the list and made $9,600,000 that season, making him the third-highest paid player in the game behind Gary Sheffield (who made $14,936,667). The average MLB salary was $1,383,555. Maddux made more than 7 times what the average player made.

Maddux got a $1 million raise for 1999 and made $1,349,794 less than the highest paid player that year (Albert Belle). The average MLB salary was $1,555,536. Maddux made 7 times what the average player made.

Now fast-forward to 2015. The average salary for a MLB player was $4,250,000. http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/04/major-league-baseball-average-salary-meal-money-2015-mlb

If Maddux were making the same 7 times the average player's salary, he would've made $29,750,000 last season. Zack Greinke - arguably the best Pitcher in baseball THIS season and in his prime was tied for the third highest-paid player in the game at $25 million. Kershaw made $32,571,428. http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/rankings/

Looks like salaries are right about the same place they were when Maddux signed his deals, but why use the numbers to back up your argument? If it bothers you that much why don't you quit paying for cable or satellite TV and watching the games and/or quit buying tickets, jerseys, $10 beers, and $7 hot dogs???

Compare apples-to-apples 2 million people will NEVER buy tickets to come see you or me do our jobs. Even I get paid more than what the average person that does what I do for a living. Not 5-7 times more, but then I can't throw a baseball like Maddux could either.

You pretty much prove my point. I don't have a problem paying good players, great players ie Maddux, Grienke, Price, etc their fair market value or even above market value. I do have a major issue paying a piece of garbage 15 million dollars a year to give up gopher balls, ie Samardja. And don't get me wrong I'm a huge Heyward fan, but I can't seem to rationalize why some wouldn't want to pay Heyward 20 million a year but want to pay Samardja 15 is beyond belief. One actually brings value and marketability, some based off potential, but still at least he's not garbage.

 

[thewupk]

Owners are going to get their money. Fans think that somehow because it's a game that the business shouldn't make money.

What you want is an owner who is capable and ready to re-invest in their product and brand to build value ie. build a winner. George Steinbrenner was a guy like that. Does anyone think George DIDN'T make money? Or Ted Turner?

The other end of the spectrum you've got guys like Bud Selig, a guy whose pockets weren't that deep to start with, who bought a team he could afford which correlated to a small market team and then immediately began to scream about the inequity of baseball. Selig and others like him are the ones who led the charge on collusion (taking money right out of the pockets of players) and forcing strikes and lock outs. I think it's funny that he gets credit for "saving" baseball when it was him and people like him that almost killed it.

As for the dollars going to players, I don't have an issue with it. But, I don't think it's smart as a franchise to throw money away simply because you have it to spend. Instead of giving Cueto $17-$20M, I would rather see hat money go elsewhere, maybe to multiple players.

I know owners are getting their money. When some cry about the economics of baseball I just laugh. Baseball makes more and more money each year. It's in a stupid good place as far as revenue goes. And as the revenue for the game has skyrocketed you've seen player salaries keep in line. So as long as baseball continues to pull in 7 billion + a year and increasing your going to see these 'outrageous' salaries.

And giving Cueto 17-20 million depends on how you value him. He's been a very good pitcher the last few years and if he performs like that over the next 3-4 years then he would easily be worth that type of money. That being said I don't know enough about him to suggest he's going to continue being that player. Some have mentioned possible arm issues. That would be a red flag for me.

 

[clvclv]

You pretty much prove my point. I don't have a problem paying good players, great players ie Maddux, Grienke, Price, etc their fair market value or even above market value. I do have a major issue paying a piece of garbage 15 million dollars a year to give up gopher balls, ie Samardja. And don't get me wrong I'm a huge Heyward fan, but I can't seem to rationalize why some wouldn't want to pay Heyward 20 million a year but want to pay Samardja 15 is beyond belief. One actually brings value and marketability, some based off potential, but still at least he's not garbage.

How does that prove your point???

The "average" player today makes $1,625,000 less than Maddux did in 1993.

1993 was 22 years ago. You're wasting your time comparing things today to ANYTHING from 22 years ago.

Did you have a cell phone in 1993? *ell, for that matter, did you have the internet in 1993???

I was in college drinking beer every night living on $450 a month and watching Maddux pitch at that time. As a matter of fact, I got 2 tickets to Game 5 of the NLCS against the Phillies at Fulton County Stadium by staying on hold for 6 hours on the cordless phone in my apartment for 7 hours. Cost me $100. IIRC, the phone call cost me $15.

What's the last thing you spent $100 on?

 

[clvclv]

You pretty much prove my point. I don't have a problem paying good players, great players ie Maddux, Grienke, Price, etc their fair market value or even above market value. I do have a major issue paying a piece of garbage 15 million dollars a year to give up gopher balls, ie Samardja. And don't get me wrong I'm a huge Heyward fan, but I can't seem to rationalize why some wouldn't want to pay Heyward 20 million a year but want to pay Samardja 15 is beyond belief. One actually brings value and marketability, some based off potential, but still at least he's not garbage.

Tim Hudson:
2015 Salary - $11,500,000. 4.53 ERA, 1.58 WHIP.

Jake Peavy:
2015 Salary - $12,000,000. 3.87 ERA, 1.12 WHIP.

Kyle Lohse:
2015 Salary - $11,000,000. 5.12 ERA, 1.64 WHIP.

C. C. Sabathia:
2015 Salary: $23,000,000. 4.68 ERA, 1.42 WHIP.

Baseball players sometimes get overpaid for their current production because of past production. If you want the player, you pay for him.

If you'd ever been so good at your job that somebody was willing to pay you 5 to 7 times what everybody else makes that does what you do, you wouldn't give the money back either. Comparing your (or my) piddly livelihood to what those guys do is completely ludicrous.

Not because it's "important", because that's the way it IS and always has been.

Why bemoan your place in life instead of teachers'? Police officers'? Paramedics'? Are you more important than them?

 

[Millwood1Hitter]

So Maddux was average in 03?

No you're missing my point. No doubt baseball is big business, but you'd have to agree that salaries to guys is outrageous for the most part.

15+ million for a pitcher like Samardja is absurd. And it's even more absurd for a mid market team like Atlanta. You can't invest almost 15 percent of payroll into an unknown instead of investing in more reliable assets, we should have learned our lesson as we are in the spot we are in right now to Wren spending like a drunken sailor on unknown assets that have potential or age risks in BJ and Uggla.

And if somebody wants to pay Price or Grienke 30 million a year, good for them they've earned it by being consistently at the top of their profession. Just as Maddux and so many others was deserving in the mid 90s to get paid.

Sarmadja is not a value at 15 million just cause he possibly could reach his potential, which is unlikely. With a deep and renew minor league system, we should be able to get similar production at significantly less dollars.

And it speaks to the inequities in this country. While so many of us struggle to make ends meet working our butt off, we're paying players an absurd amount because they can hit a baseball or throw a ball in the hoop or look pretty on the big screen. It's not their fault, and they are deserving to get more because they got a skillset that most of us that, but there comes a point in time where one has to ask instead of paying these absurd amounts, maybe just maybe the profits owners are making should not just be going to themselves and their players, but also giving something back to the communities and the people that support them. I know, most do, some more than others.

 

[thewupk]

So Maddux was average in 03?

No you're missing my point. No doubt baseball is big business, but you'd have to agree that salaries to guys is outrageous for the most part.

15+ million for a pitcher like Samardja is absurd. And it's even more absurd for a mid market team like Atlanta. You can't invest almost 15 percent of payroll into an unknown instead of investing in more reliable assets, we should have learned our lesson as we are in the spot we are in right now to Wren spending like a drunken sailor on unknown assets that have potential or age risks in BJ and Uggla.

And if somebody wants to pay Price or Grienke 30 million a year, good for them they've earned it by being consistently at the top of their profession. Just as Maddux and so many others was deserving in the mid 90s to get paid.

Sarmadja is not a value at 15 million just cause he possibly could reach his potential, which is unlikely. With a deep and renew minor league system, we should be able to get similar production at significantly less dollars.

And it speaks to the inequities in this country. While so many of us struggle to make ends meet working our butt off, we're paying players an absurd amount because they can hit a baseball or throw a ball in the hoop or look pretty on the big screen. It's not their fault, and they are deserving to get more because they got a skillset that most of us that, but there comes a point in time where one has to ask instead of paying these absurd amounts, maybe just maybe the profits owners are making should not just be going to themselves and their players, but also giving something back to the communities and the people that support them. I know, most do, some more than others.

Salaries are a product of the game's revenue. Want to blame someone for it? Blame the fans. They are the ones who spend money to consume this form of entertainment. Should movie stars make millions of dollars to act? Same situation. They sell movies which brings in millions. They get paid accordingly. It's that way in all forms of entertainment.

 

[clvclv]

Salaries are a product of the game's revenue. Want to blame someone for it? Blame the fans. They are the ones who spend money to consume this form of entertainment. Should movie stars make millions of dollars to act? Same situation. They sell movies which brings in millions. They get paid accordingly. It's that way in all forms of entertainment.

THIS.

If people weren't willing to shell out ridiculous amounts of money to attend games, buy jerseys, hats, etc., pay exorbitant prices for a coke, a hot dog, a bucket of popcorn, etc. to go see them in person, or ridiculous fees for the opportunity to watch them on TV or their computers, the salaries wouldn't be where they are.

Sorry, but I'm afraid it's you who's missing the point. As long as millions and millions and millions of people continue doing it, they'll continue to grow.

The median household income in the state of Georgia in 1993 was $44,120. https://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/statistics/4person.html
In 2014, the median household in Atlanta was $56,166. http://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/georgia/atlanta/

That's a 22% increase. Obviously lots of people CHOOSE to spend that money by going to games, watching them on TV, and buying things with the team's logo or their favorite players' names on them.

The players "deserve" every dime of money they get because the fans vote with their wallets, pocketbooks, and credit cards - that's what they want to see when they want to be entertained. Complaining about it is ridiculous.