Heyman on Braves' trade chips and Olivera

[bravesfanMatt]

We do know that this thread is not about Swanson/Albies or Heyward right...

It sounds like the Braves will give HO another shot. I hope he spends the rest of this year in the minors.

 

[sturg33]

Year before that, he was 30th in the NL.

And my point isn't that he isn't a good hitter. The point is he isn't elite. He's well below the top 10 of last year, and way way below the top 5. The Cubbies had Rizzo, Bryant, and Schwarber penciled into their lineup when they gave Heyward that cash. We, unfortunately, did not. It would have been a pretty damn risky contract for us, all things considered.

Nobody has called him an elite hitter.

I'm calling him a very good hitter... who has basically earned his contract on his offense alone.. when you factor in his defense, it was a bargain

 

[Preacher]

Money isn't created equally in baseball, we are not the Yanks/Cubs/Red Sox.

Giving Heyward 23 million is easily justifiable to those squads, its a harder discussion for the Braves.

Its part of the reason Wren is no longer here.

 

[yeezus]

Nobody has called him an elite hitter.

I'm calling him a very good hitter... who has basically earned his contract on his offense alone.. when you factor in his defense, it was a bargain

But you are clamoring for elite hitters, and have pointed out that we don't have any on the team or in the pipeline. Heyward is not that guy, either. And again, it made a lot more sense for the Cubs than it would for us. We don't have their money or young players. If Heyward hits like he did in 2014 instead of 2015, I hesitate to call $23M/year a bargain for anyone.

 

[sturg33]

I'm clamoring for elite players. Heyward is that... I'm hopeful Swanson/Albies become that.

But I don't see any elite hitters in our system anywhere. And if the expectation is that Swanson will be a Kris Bryant type hitter... many will be very disappointed

 

[yeezus]

I'm clamoring for elite players. Heyward is that... I'm hopeful Swanson/Albies become that.

But I don't see any elite hitters in our system anywhere. And if the expectation is that Swanson will be a Kris Bryant type hitter... many will be very disappointed

who has that expectation, or anywhere close to it? Swanson could be an elite hitter at SS, sure, and certainly an elite player there. Same with Albies at 2B.

You may not see any elite hitters in the system, but does that matter? If it doesn't matter for a $23M RFer, where does it matter?

 

[yeezus]

I'm clamoring for elite players. Heyward is that... I'm hopeful Swanson/Albies become that.

But I don't see any elite hitters in our system anywhere. And if the expectation is that Swanson will be a Kris Bryant type hitter... many will be very disappointed

I just don't understand what you want. You harp on us not having any elite hitters in the system, yet wanted to give a RFer who's not an elite hitter $23M. You say it's fine because he's an elite player, doesn't need to be an elite hitter. Fine. But then the same should apply to Swanson and Albies, especially at their price points compared to Heyward's. They are two potential elite players at their positions close to the big leagues, which is what you want, correct?

You haven't in this thread, but you've poked plenty of fun at the lack of power on this team and in this system. Another thing Heyward does not provide. He's much more of an all-around, fundamentals type player, which is the point many were making when the whole power discussion was being talked about: you don't need power if you do everything else really well. You scoffed at that, but wanted to give Heyward $23M to do it. It's just not consistent.

 

[nsacpi]

I'm having trouble with this line of logic:

Team is short power==>any player who does not provide above average power is not a good fit for us.

 

[sturg33]

I just don't understand what you want. You harp on us not having any elite hitters in the system, yet wanted to give a RFer who's not an elite hitter $23M. You say it's fine because he's an elite player, doesn't need to be an elite hitter. Fine. But then the same should apply to Swanson and Albies, especially at their price points compared to Heyward's. They are two potential elite players at their positions close to the big leagues, which is what you want, correct?

You haven't in this thread, but you've poked plenty of fun at the lack of power on this team and in this system. Another thing Heyward does not provide. He's much more of an all-around, fundamentals type player, which is the point many were making when the whole power discussion was being talked about: you don't need power if you do everything else really well. You scoffed at that, but wanted to give Heyward $23M to do it. It's just not consistent.

I don't know what you're talking about.

We don't have any elite hitters in the system. That doesn't mean we don't have elite prospects - we do. But I think people are expecting Swanson to be better hitters then they may end up being. Maybe I'm wrong... but I believe our expectation of good offensive players has been reduced since the last couple of years.

People mock Heyward's offense all the time, and I don't see Swanson or Albies being better offensively. I'm fine with that, as long as they are good players. But just like Heyward's offense disappointed everyone, I can see the same thing happening with Swanson.

I would have also liked to see some bats acquired with the tremendous amount of talent we traded away. We finally got one with Swanson... But we will need more if we want to score some runs.

 

[yeezus]

I'm having trouble with this line of logic:

Team is short power==>any player who does not provide above average power is not a good fit for us.

well, who's logic is that? certainly not mine, so not sure what you're talking about.

 

[sturg33]

well, who's logic is that? certainly not mine, so not sure what you're talking about.

You've said numerous times that Heyward isn't a good fit for us because he doesn't bring much power

 

[gilesfan]

Also clubs that have much more money to spend, had better prospects/young players, and already had plenty of power/potential elite hitters. giving Heyward $23M didn't fit Atlanta the way it fit Chicago.

I'm genuinely curious, though: what teams were lining up to give him that? Obviously the Cubs had the highest offer, and they're doing great more in spite of him than because of him.

It has been reported that the Cards offered him more money and that the Nationals offered him significantly more total dollars, but asked him to defer some of the money.

 

[yeezus]

I don't know what you're talking about.

We don't have any elite hitters in the system. That doesn't mean we don't have elite prospects - we do. But I think people are expecting Swanson to be better hitters then they may end up being. Maybe I'm wrong... but I believe our expectation of good offensive players has been reduced since the last couple of years.

People mock Heyward's offense all the time, and I don't see Swanson or Albies being better offensively. I'm fine with that, as long as they are good players. But just like Heyward's offense disappointed everyone, I can see the same thing happening with Swanson.

I would have also liked to see some bats acquired with the tremendous amount of talent we traded away. We finally got one with Swanson... But we will need more if we want to score some runs.

1. Swanson and/or Albies could be elite hitters for MIF.

2. Even if they aren't, by your own standards, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter for a $23M RFer, so it shouldn't matter anywhere.

3. Both of them have fair shots at being better offensively when you consider position. Corner OF vs. SS/2B.

4. I can understand wanting more bats, but I also understand that 1) Maybe the better value was in pitching 2) wanting a lot of pitchers in general due to high flame out rate. it's subjective, so i'll trust the people who have far more info rather than being upset at my comparatively uneducated guesses and feelings.

 

[gilesfan]

I would be fine if my 2B or SS hit like Heyward... not my RF

The average RF offensive production:

2012 104 wRC+

2013 105 wRC+

2014 100 wRC+

2015 107 wRC+

Heyward:

2012 121 wRC+

2013 120 wRC+

2014 110 wRC+

2015 121 wRC+

That is even ignoring defense. You really wouldn't take a RF that hit significantly better than the average of his peers?

 

[sturg33]

1. Swanson and/or Albies could be elite hitters for MIF.

2. Even if they aren't, by your own standards, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter for a $23M RFer, so it shouldn't matter anywhere.

3. Both of them have fair shots at being better offensively when you consider position. Corner OF vs. SS/2B.

4. I can understand wanting more bats, but I also understand that 1) Maybe the better value was in pitching 2) wanting a lot of pitchers in general due to high flame out rate. it's subjective, so i'll trust the people who have far more info rather than being upset at my comparatively uneducated guesses and feelings.

1. Certainly

2. Correct

3. They will need to be... considering we got neck for 2.5 more years

4. This logic means we can never question a trade - which many on this board abide by

 

[nsacpi]

The average RF offensive production:

2012 104 wRC+
2013 105 wRC+
2014 100 wRC+
2015 107 wRC+

Heyward:
2012 121 wRC+
2013 120 wRC+
2014 110 wRC+
2015 121 wRC+

That is even ignoring defense. You really wouldn't take a RF that hit significantly better than the average of his peers?

We have Markakis, whose signing yeezus apparently thinks was not a mistake. His recent wRC+ numbers:

2012 126
2013 87
2014 106
2015 107

 

[yeezus]

You've said numerous times that Heyward isn't a good fit for us because he doesn't bring much power

lol, no I have not. jesus christ. this is insane.
I have said that it's odd that all the people who say we need more power wanted to give Heyward $23M on a team/franchise overall devoid of much power. it's not consistent with "we need more power" to want to sign Heyward to a big contract. I don't feel we need a ton of power; many others do feel we need it. but if you feel that, then I don't know how you justify handing Heyward all that money.

Heyward at $23M, to me, isn't a great fit here for more reasons than just not offering power (tho it doesn't help). I don't believe we have the money to spend $23M on a RFer who's not an elite offensive player when there's not enough of it elsewhere. The Cubs had cheap guys like Bryant and Schwarber, and Rizzo is at 1B, PLUS have much more to spend. Heyward was much too risky for my blood for a team with our payroll and lack of other long-term position players.

 

[chopdrew]

Yup. I'd take any of them over a defensively limited slugger who can give you 30 home runs.

You need one of those 30 HR guys in the lineup, though. Stick him in LF.

 

[yeezus]

We have Markakis, whose signing yeezus apparently thinks was not a mistake. His recent wRC+ numbers:

2012 126
2013 87
2014 106
2015 107

oh, man.
I said, even at the time, I wasn't thrilled with the signing, but understood the logic. how many times have I said that now? that's about as far as I've gone in support of the signing.

 

[yeezus]

4. This logic means we can never question a trade - which many on this board abide by

questioning a trade is different than harping on it for over a year and acting as if you most definitely knew/know better.