Playoffs Thread

Super said:
You are the ones literally making up and assuming where his stats would have ended up simply because it helps your point.
"If we remove his 1st two really bad months and add 25 points to his OPS, he's exactly where I want his numbers to be, therefore I will give him credit for said numbers."
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I'm not making up anything. Here are the 2 most important facts. As is his offensive numbers were as good as prior 800 ops seasons. A combination of the league being down and ops not weighting obp correctly make that true. Whether his ops was 770 or 800 doesn't matter. His wrc+ was 120. Right in line with previous years. It was a good offensive season. It also ignores how he hit after coming back from an appendectomy which was as good as he ever was a a brave.

Again. People see what they want to.
 
Super said:
What?

You said he was "on pace" for an .800 OPS but that is objectively untrue. I'm not positive he wouldn't have reached it, of course. But just assuming he would have and giving him credit for it when it isn't true is just really poor reasoning. He was 24 points away from it...
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Learn to read. I didn't look up his numbers before I made that comment. I assumed them, and I wasn't far off. My reasoning is based off everything he had done up to that point in his career. Saying he probably would have achieved that mark does nothing to discredit my point anyway. His OPS+ was 114 that year despite the injuries. He was a good hitter. But, by all means keep ignoring that and harping on the fact that he didn't quite reach that .800 OPS.
 
thewupk said:
I'm not making up anything. Here are the 2 most important facts. As is his offensive numbers were as good as prior 800 ops seasons. A combination of the league being down and ops not weighting obp correctly make that true. Whether his ops was 770 or 800 doesn't matter. His wrc+ was 120. Right in line with previous years. It was a good offensive season. It also ignores how he hit after coming back from an appendectomy which was as good as he ever was a a brave.

Again. People see what they want to.
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And his wrc+ was 121 with the cardinals... 2 years after getting hit in the face. You right... people see what they want
 
thewupk said:
I'm not making up anything. Here are the 2 most important facts. As is his offensive numbers were as good as prior 800 ops seasons. A combination of the league being down and ops not weighting obp correctly make that true. Whether his ops was 770 or 800 doesn't matter. His wrc+ was 120. Right in line with previous years. It was a good offensive season. It also ignores how he hit after coming back from an appendectomy which was as good as he ever was a a brave.

Again. People see what they want to.
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What am I not seeing because I don't want to?

I didn't say it wasn't a good offensive season.

I also never brought up the .800 OPS threshold - cyyoung31 did, and said "but the fact is he would've OPS'd north of .800 3 of his first 4 years." I pointed out that that is not a fact, which is absolutely 100% objectively true. that fact upset him mightily, and then he (and now you) both created scenarios and sliced numbers up how you wanted in order to show .800 was a guarantee! you started at a point you wanted to reach, and went backwards justifying it.

you then said..

"Heyward started out slow in 2013 and even after his appendectomy it took him awhile to get going again. From June 1st until he got hit in the face he hit 297/373/498 -871. 201 ISO which is about what you would expect from him before the injury.."

Why would I expect that from him before the injury when he had never done it before over a full season?

You're absolutely right that people see what they want to see.
 
CyYoung31 said:
Learn to read. I didn't look up his numbers before I made that comment. I assumed them, and I wasn't far off. My reasoning is based off everything he had done up to that point in his career. Saying he probably would have achieved that mark does nothing to discredit my point anyway. His OPS+ was 114 that year despite the injuries. He was a good hitter. But, by all means keep ignoring that and harping on the fact that he didn't quite reach that .800 OPS.
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You literally quoted the numbers in this thread. So you should learn to read what you quote.
I agree he was a good, not great, hitter. And he was good again after that, too.
I'm just not pretending I know he was destined to be a great hitter if not for getting hit in the face.
 
Super said:
You literally quoted the numbers in this thread. So you should learn to read what you quote.

I agree he was a good, not great, hitter. And he was good again after that, too.

I'm just not pretending I know he was destined to be a great hitter if not for getting hit in the face.
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But, that wasn't my point was it? My point was that he was two different hitters before and after the injury. I should have made sure I was right about him hitting an .800 but I never said it was some magical threshold that made him a good hitter. The only reason I brought it up is to show consistency. And I still think that a.776 OPS surrounded by .815 OPS seasons is relatively consistent.

The proof is in the power. His power took a nosedive after that year, with an aberration in 2015 thanks to an uncharacteristically high batting average propped up by an inflated BABIP.

You seem to think we don't have any evidence for our beliefs when we clearly do.
 
CyYoung31 said:
You seem to think we don't have any evidence for our beliefs when we clearly do.
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your beliefs come down to faith in Heyward more than anything.
I'm sure getting hit in the face led to some decline. I'd also bet that adjustments from pitchers led to some (likely most) of the decline as well.
what is this about his inflated BABIP? He went from .335, to .260, to .319, .281, .308. 329 isn't out there given those previous numbers.
My issue is with stating things as fact that are, in fact, not fact. His numbers from '11 are somewhat in line (worse, actually) than his number post-face smash. So he could've broke a lot of ways, depending on a lot of things. And now he's here.
 
Super said:
your beliefs come down to faith in Heyward more than anything.
I'm sure getting hit in the face led to some decline. I'd also bet that adjustments from pitchers led to some (likely most) of the decline as well.
what is this about his inflated BABIP? He went from .335, to .260, to .319, .281, .308. 329 isn't out there given those previous numbers.
My issue is with stating things as fact that are, in fact, not fact. His numbers from '11 are somewhat in line (worse, actually) than his number post-face smash. So he could've broke a lot of ways, depending on a lot of things. And now he's here.
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Well, my faith in him comes down to his consistency up to that point. He was a good hitter with power 3 of his first 4 years until the injury.

He was also injured in '11, and didn't even reach 400 ABs just like in '13.

Now, he very well could have just simply failed as a hitter. But, I find it convenient that this all-world talent suddenly forgot how to hit for power after getting nailed by a fastball in the jaw. We'll likely never really know, unfortunately.
 
msstate7 said:
And his wrc+ was 121 with the cardinals... 2 years after getting hit in the face. You right... people see what they want
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See previous posts. His power was nowhere close to what it was before. He got lucky on grounders that year. It's obvious he's not the same player.
 
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