2018 Offseason And Targets

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gotta love arguing semantics. most can see that comparing madbum to verlander doesn't work for a lot of reasons.
 
Verlander is a better pitcher who, even during Bumgarner’s peak and his own dip, was still about as good as Bumgarner. Then he accomplished something very rare, and bounced back to elite in his mid-30s. Not sure why the comparison between the two is relevant to the Braves’ acquiring Bumgarner (which they shouldn’t do unless he comes very cheap, which he won’t), nor am I sure why we should expect Bumgarner (a pitcher with different profile and stuff, whose peripherals are already declining) to be an exception to the rule just because Verlander was.
 
bravesfanMatt said:
Sorry super but I have to agree with state on this one. All along to me means at any point in their career’s. It seems like you’re moving the goalposts on this one. And knowing state he really doesn’t have a dog in this fight he just likes to play devils Advocate.
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So if someone uses the phrase "all along" in reference to a player being better, then they have to have been better in every single season for their entire career or the statement isn't true? That seems like its a bit too literal.
 
Super said:
that, on top of a few previous times, one of which by crazytrain.
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The comparison to Verlander was that people were also throwing dirt on his career based on an off year, not that Bumgarner was exactly the same pitcher.

It doesn't really matter what really good (past or former) pitcher is discussed around here, someone is going to say they are in decline and would be a terrible idea and is then going to proceed to talk up Max Fried or something.

I don't mind, it's just what happens.

The Braves should not give up multiple quality prospects for one season of Bumgarner. It's also understandable that the Giants would have trouble trading him for his realistic value before the season. so the probability of a deal is not particularly high.

But Bumgarner would absolutely be an expected upgrade to the rotation at baseline and would have the upside of being a major upgrade.
 
BeanieAntics said:
So if someone uses the phrase "all along" in reference to a player being better, then they have to have been better in every single season for their entire career or the statement isn't true? That seems like its a bit too literal.
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I think jpx7 summed it up nicely. But yes. All along is a very literal phrase. I didn’t make the definition up. It says all the time. Not most of the time or majority of the time. Again. This isn’t about MB or JV like State and JPX7 I don’t care. It is a weird comparison. I don’t even think Hudson was comparing the two. More comparing the situations. Which is still weird.
 
If the max Machado offer is 7/$175....why would all teams not be in?? That’s just a tad bit more than Freddie makes. I don’t really want Machado....but...

I think AA is right in the middle of trying to get Harper on the right deal.

I do NOT think it will happen.

I DO think it’s why we are waiting on making a move.
 
bravesfanMatt said:
I think jpx7 summed it up nicely. But yes. All along is a very literal phrase. I didn’t make the definition up. It says all the time. Not most of the time or majority of the time. Again. This isn’t about MB or JV like State and JPX7 I don’t care. It is a weird comparison. I don’t even think Hudson was comparing the two. More comparing the situations. Which is still weird.
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Yeah I’m just comparing the situations. People were saying that Verlander was washed up and had lost some velocity and this and that. I’d take a chance on Bumgarner if he’s cheap enough.
 
bravesfanMatt said:
I think jpx7 summed it up nicely. But yes. All along is a very literal phrase. I didn’t make the definition up. It says all the time. Not most of the time or majority of the time. Again. This isn’t about MB or JV like State and JPX7 I don’t care. It is a weird comparison. I don’t even think Hudson was comparing the two. More comparing the situations. Which is still weird.
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all the time *semi-colon* from the beginning. The semicolon is important because "from the beginning" would be a different connotation that would fit far better with Super's usage. It should also be noted that "all the time" has different definitions as well. It can mean at all times, which is the way you are using it, but it can also mean "Very frequently or regularly". For example, if you said "Jason litters on the side of the road all the time" it wouldn't mean that Jason is literally spending his entire life standing on the side of the road throwing cigarette butts in the grass, but rather that he does it frequently. By extension, all along could be used similarly. Justin Verlander has "Very frequently or regularly" been better than Madison Bumgarner so using all along in that context is perfectly reasonable.

So no, all along is not always a very literal phrase and it can absolutely mean most of the time or a majority of the time.
 
jpx7 said:
Verlander is a better pitcher who, even during Bumgarner’s peak and his own dip, was still about as good as Bumgarner. Then he accomplished something very rare, and bounced back to elite in his mid-30s. Not sure why the comparison between the two is relevant to the Braves’ acquiring Bumgarner (which they shouldn’t do unless he comes very cheap, which he won’t), nor am I sure why we should expect Bumgarner (a pitcher with different profile and stuff, whose peripherals are already declining) to be an exception to the rule just because Verlander was.
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For the same reason Newk was going to improve his control at age 25 because Randy Johnson improved his control later in his career.

For the same reason Allard could be a good pitcher because Glavine didn't throw hard and was good.

That reason: many posters are very stupid.
 
Enscheff said:
For the same reason Newk was going to improve his control at age 25 because Randy Johnson improved his control later in his career.

For the same reason Allard could be a good pitcher because Glavine didn't throw hard and was good.

That reason: many posters are very stupid.
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Enscheff, I've told you about talking in the middle of English class. Now shut up or I'm going to have to send you to the principal's office.
 
BeanieAntics said:
all the time *semi-colon* from the beginning. The semicolon is important because "from the beginning" would be a different connotation that would fit far better with Super's usage. It should also be noted that "all the time" has different definitions as well. It can mean at all times, which is the way you are using it, but it can also mean "Very frequently or regularly". For example, if you said "Jason litters on the side of the road all the time" it wouldn't mean that Jason is literally spending his entire life standing on the side of the road throwing cigarette butts in the grass, but rather that he does it frequently. By extension, all along could be used similarly. Justin Verlander has "Very frequently or regularly" been better than Madison Bumgarner so using all along in that context is perfectly reasonable.

So no, all along is not always a very literal phrase and it can absolutely mean most of the time or a majority of the time.
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No it doesn’t mean he is spending his day littering. But it can be safely assumed that when he is driving and has trash he will always liter. So saying JV is better than MB all the time is like saying JV is always better than MB when given the opportunity to pitch.
 
TheBravos said:
If the max Machado offer is 7/$175....why would all teams not be in?? That’s just a tad bit more than Freddie makes. I don’t really want Machado....but...

I think AA is right in the middle of trying to get Harper on the right deal.

I do NOT think it will happen.

I DO think it’s why we are waiting on making a move.
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If Machado could be had for 8/200 he should be a Brave, period. Use Swanson as a trade chip, and slide Machado to 3B when a new SS is acquired later. These offers from MLB teams crying poor is a complete joke.

If 7/175 is the new norm for a 5-6 win player going into his age 26 season, I see no way there isn't major labor strife when the current CBA expires.

MLB teams are not spreading their increased revenue to players, and it's going to cause major issues.
 
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jpx7 said:
Verlander is a better pitcher who, even during Bumgarner’s peak and his own dip, was still about as good as Bumgarner. Then he accomplished something very rare, and bounced back to elite in his mid-30s. Not sure why the comparison between the two is relevant to the Braves’ acquiring Bumgarner (which they shouldn’t do unless he comes very cheap, which he won’t), nor am I sure why we should expect Bumgarner (a pitcher with different profile and stuff, whose peripherals are already declining) to be an exception to the rule just because Verlander was.
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because this is a message board discussing hypothetical situations? The reality is that no one knows what Bumgarner is really capable of at the moment since his last 2 years were more or less throwaways because of injury.
 
Some of Bumgarner's drop in velocity could be due (actually likely due, imo) to the injuries he's sustained the last 2 seasons. So there's hope that an injury free off-season and a full spring training could see him return to form. But the gamble just isn't worth that much. I'd send a 45 FV guy for him or a 50 FV prospect for he and Will Smith. But that's about it.
 
bravesfanMatt said:
No it doesn’t mean he is spending his day littering. But it can be safely assumed that when he is driving and has trash he will always liter. So saying JV is better than MB all the time is like saying JV is always better than MB when given the opportunity to pitch.
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Once again, no it doesn't. Just look up the definition of the definition of all along. "All the time" clearly doesn't HAVE to mean at all times, but rather frequently or regularly. Using the phrase "Justin Verlander has been better than Bumgarner all along" is, at the very worst, somewhat sloppy. But really its a true statement if Verlander has been better than Bumgarner on a regular or frequent basis. He doesn't have to be better than Bumgarner literally every single time one of them pitches. That'd be a ridiculous standard. There was one night where Armando Galaraga was better than Clayton Kershaw. But if I said "Kershaw has been better than Armando all along" that'd be a true statement.

This is a really stupid point of contention on my part, but I'm an argumentative person and it'd be equally stupid to suggest that the phrasing "all along" wouldn't apply in this case. I can almost guarantee you that, at some point in your life, you've used similar phrasing to describe something that doesn't fit your overly literal definition of the phrase. Because everyone has.
 
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