Race

McCann'sCans said:
Nailed it! So let's follow that logic with a multiple-choice game. Black and Hispanic people have less money than white people because:

A) They are stupid.
B) They don't work hard.
C) White people are more skilled.
D) We live in a country where white people have historically controlled all of the wealth and power, and we haven't come close to unraveling the systemic issues that arise from a history of inequality.
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Appalachia is historically and currently economically disadvantaged. Do you think that's because:
A) They are stupid.
B) They don't work hard.
C) Urban people are more skilled.
D) We live in a country where city people have historically controlled all of the wealth and power, and we haven't come close to unraveling the systemic issues that arise from a history of inequality.
 
McCann'sCans said:
Nailed it! So let's follow that logic with a multiple-choice game. Black and Hispanic people have less money than white people because:

A) They are stupid.
B) They don't work hard.
C) White people are more skilled.
D) We live in a country where white people have historically controlled all of the wealth and power, and we haven't come close to unraveling the systemic issues that arise from a history of inequality.
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We’ve allowed a culture to invest the black community where success is equivalent to whiteness.
 
Jaw said:
Appalachia is historically and currently economically disadvantaged. Do you think that's because:
A) They are stupid.
B) They don't work hard.
C) Urban people are more skilled.
D) We live in a country where city people have historically controlled all of the wealth and power, and we haven't come close to unraveling the systemic issues that arise from a history of inequality.
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This is a great point. If you're asking seriously, I think it is certainly option D. And I think that we should make it a priority to invest in those communities and solve the systemic issues that exist due to a history of neglect and underinvestment. Their education systems, healthcare systems, legal systems, etc. are all underdeveloped relative to those in cities not because they are dumb or incompetent, but due to a history of unfair bias towards cities and neglect of rural communities. The same is true for minority communities.
 
I find it heartening and reassuring that we can all agree on trying to solve issues of socioeconomic inequities. We just disagree on what led to and has sustained those inequities.
 
I was asking seriously. My point is that the focus is being placed on race when it shouldn't be. Those poor in Appalachia are often from families that have lived in squalor since before the Civil War, so it's a cycle as old and chronic as that of blacks since slavery.

Most people in poverty come from a culture of poverty, and that culture transcends skin color. I've spent lots of time in trailer parks and housing projects. Neither group would believe how similar they are or what natural allies they should be. Especially when race is so often used to divide them.
 
https://nypost.com/2021/06/22/ikea-juneteenth-menu-of-watermelon-fried-chicken-sparks-outrage/amp/



An Atlanta branch of the Scandinavian furniture chain has sparked outrage with what employees are calling an intensely problematic menu curated to celebrate the holiday, which marks the emancipation of the very last enslaved Americans.

“To honor the perseverance of Black Americans and acknowledge the progress yet to be made, we observe Juneteenth on Saturday, June 19, 2021,” begins an email acquired by TMZ, which was sent to employees at the branch last week. “Look out for a special menu on Saturday which will include: fried chicken, watermelon, mac n cheese, potato salad, collard greens, candied yams.”

The selection, including items that have historically been used to demean African Americans through stereotyping, resulted in multiple employees calling out of work in protest, according to a local news channel.


The fried chicken and watermelon stereotype is an example of Northern racism from the days of the Great Migration. Those Yankees had never seen fans of fried chicken and watermelon before, so they assumed it was a black thing and made sure to put both in all of their caricatures of black people.

Anyone raised in the South can tell you that every big event, family reunion, or church cookout in the summertime has fried chicken and watermelon, no matter what the color of the attendees.
 
Jaw said:
I was asking seriously. My point is that the focus is being placed on race when it shouldn't be. Those poor in Appalachia are often from families that have lived in squalor since before the Civil War, so it's a cycle as old and chronic as that of blacks since slavery.

Most people in poverty come from a culture of poverty, and that culture transcends skin color. I've spent lots of time in trailer parks and housing projects. Neither group would believe how similar they are or what natural allies they should be. Especially when race is so often used to divide them.
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Couldn't both things be true? Minority communities are impacted by a history of racism in this country and are at an economic disadvantage, have health/education systems that haven't caught up, have a lack of political power, etc. because of it. Appalachian communities have faced their own form of neglect and systemic issues, and we should strive to fix those too.

It just seems wild to me to pretend like racism has had no impact on the economic wellbeing of minority communities. Just like it seems crazy to me to pretend like sexism has had no impact on pay gaps and title gaps for women in the workplace. Just like it seems crazy to me to pretend like certain parts of the country- like Appalachia- have been given the same shot to succeed that they deserve. We have a lot of warts in this country- racism being one of many- and we should all want to fix all of those things rather than just deciding that everything is cool because women can vote and the civil rights movement happened.
 
McCann'sCans said:
Couldn't both things be true? Minority communities are impacted by a history of racism in this country and are at an economic disadvantage, have health/education systems that haven't caught up, have a lack of political power, etc. because of it. Appalachian communities have faced their own form of neglect and systemic issues, and we should strive to fix those too.

It just seems wild to me to pretend like racism has had no impact on the economic wellbeing of minority communities. Just like it seems crazy to me to pretend like sexism has had no impact on pay gaps and title gaps for women in the workplace. Just like it seems crazy to me to pretend like certain parts of the country- like Appalachia- have been given the same shot to succeed that they deserve. We have a lot of warts in this country- racism being one of many- and we should all want to fix all of those things rather than just deciding that everything is cool because women can vote and the civil rights movement happened.
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Historical treatment had an impact. That is no longer the case. In fact it’s quite the opposite. Minorities have more opportunities now with a little hard work. But it’ll take decades before there is anything close to resembling equality of outcomes.
 
Are there a bunch of current government and corporate initiatives in place now to help the poor rural white demographic overcome systemic oppression?
 
thethe said:
Historical treatment had an impact. That is no longer the case. In fact it’s quite the opposite. Minorities have more opportunities now with a little hard work. But it’ll take decades before there is anything close to resembling equality of outcomes.
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We disagree on the fact that the impact of historical treatment is over. I believe that while it has improved, it persists in each of the cases listed above. Just because laws change doesn't mean everything is immediately fixed.

I think part of this comes down to equity vs. equality, which I think is always a helpful framing.

Equality-equity-justice-lores.jpg
 
sturg33 said:
Are there a bunch of current government and corporate initiatives in place now to help the poor rural white demographic overcome systemic oppression?
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there are enormous annual transfers from urban taxpayers to rural areas...i might add those rural areas are a good deal more white and less diverse than the country as a whole
 
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sturg33 said:
Wait you think federal farm subsidies is that?

(Also, I'm against those too)
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it goes well beyond farm subsidies

even within a given state, New York for example, the city of New York contributes a disproportionate share of tax revenues

and rural areas in New York receive a disproportionate share of state services and financial assistance

rural areas in this country get quite a lot of benefit from fiscal transfers at both the federal and state levels

and those rural areas are generally more white and less diverse than the rest of the country

i'm in favor of those transfers because they are progressive...they work to the benefit of rural areas that are below average in income levels
 
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McCann'sCans said:
We disagree on the fact that the impact of historical treatment is over. I believe that while it has improved, it persists in each of the cases listed above. Just because laws change doesn't mean everything is immediately fixed.

I think part of this comes down to equity vs. equality, which I think is always a helpful framing.

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It can’t get fixed by outside forces. Everything is available now to succeed. Most notably movements to hire minorities for the sake of diversity and not merit.
 
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