TLHLIM

thewupk said:
Soon this will be a reality

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Completely forgot this movie existed.

We are living in a movie from the 80's. Super.
 
mqt said:
To be clear, you realize there is no objective right or wrong in these, right? People in the past agreed to these definitions and social norms, and we can collectively change the consensus based on any new data or public perception. None of the things you describe here are based on hard science. It’s true that people are what we recognize as biologically male or biologically female. It is not fundamentally true that based on those facts that they should use a certain bathroom or play for a certain sports team or be labeled as anything. I’m not trying to tell you that you should agree with me on whether or not making those changes are good for our society or even the individual. I do not believe I’ve called you or anybody else a bigot for holding your views. However, I just don’t see how the other side can just definitively say these people are wrong or mentally ill when the basis for believing that is subjective and based on our previous interpretations of the world.
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I guess competitive balance means nothing to you?
 
mqt said:
I’m not saying the other competitor shouldn’t have an emotional response. But I don’t see why the rest of the world is outraged about that competitor getting 2nd instead of 1st or another getting 3rd instead of 2nd.
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People who are super driven (the ones that go on to do amazing things, make huge sacrifices, and bleed for what they love) are special people. There are not many that can do that. Those people should have a fair shake. People don't celebrate 2nd place. There are costs involved in competing (sometimes lifetimes of work) and having them rob you of your title or success is borderline criminal.

I'm not sure if you have been paying attention but MMA is allowing transgender females to compete against biological females, and they are getting destroyed. Like completely destroyed. In what world should that be taking place?
 
Tapate50 said:
People who are super driven (the ones that go on to do amazing things, make huge sacrifices, and bleed for what they love) are special people. There are not many that can do that. Those people should have a fair shake. People don't celebrate 2nd place. There are costs involved in competing (sometimes lifetimes of work) and having them rob you of your title or success is borderline criminal.

I'm not sure if you have been paying attention but MMA is allowing transgender females to compete against biological females, and they are getting destroyed. Like completely destroyed. In what world should that be taking place?
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The MMA stuff is the worst kind of insanity that we are seeing lately.

How could anyone let men fight against women like this?
 
thethe said:
I guess competitive balance means nothing to you?
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It doesn’t mean nothing to me, but it’s personally below kids feeling accepted as themselves. You’re welcome to disagree, but I don’t see how the logical conclusion is that I don’t care about women.
 
mqt said:
It doesn’t mean nothing to me, but it’s personally below kids feeling accepted as themselves. You’re welcome to disagree, but I don’t see how the logical conclusion is that I don’t care about women.
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To me this is the equivalent of sacrificing children for obese people with our COVID response.

In what world does it make sense to penalize women who have trained their whole lives because some guy has a mental illness?
 
Tapate50 said:
People who are super driven (the ones that go on to do amazing things, make huge sacrifices, and bleed for what they love) are special people. There are not many that can do that. Those people should have a fair shake. People don't celebrate 2nd place. There are costs involved in competing (sometimes lifetimes of work) and having them rob you of your title or success is borderline criminal.

I'm not sure if you have been paying attention but MMA is allowing transgender females to compete against biological females, and they are getting destroyed. Like completely destroyed. In what world should that be taking place?
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I would stop short of allowing this unless there are some strong guardrails in place to protect the safety of the participants. I think the individual safety of competitors should be the first, second and third priorities in sports, particularly amateur sports.
 
thethe said:
To me this is the equivalent of sacrificing children for obese people with our COVID response.

In what world does it make sense to penalize women who have trained their whole lives because some guy has a mental illness?
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I lean fairly utilitarian in my worldview. I don’t see the number of cases where trans athletes are dominating female sports being high enough to tip the scales on the harm I’d perceive for trans children being excluded from activities as they are. My perception could be wrong, but I don’t think it’s a definitive fact that I am wrong.
 
mqt said:
I lean fairly utilitarian in my worldview. I don’t see the number of cases where trans athletes are dominating female sports being high enough to tip the scales on the harm I’d perceive for trans children being excluded from activities as they are. My perception could be wrong, but I don’t think it’s a definitive fact that I am wrong.
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If just one girl in the world is alienated because some man has a mental illness that is one time too many.
 
Tapate50 said:
Excluded?
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I mean, this shouldn’t be controversial. Even if we want to say for the sake of argument that I agree with you that the person in question is male by all definitions, but wants to live and be accepted as a female. By having that person compete as a male, you’re excluding that person from competing as a female amongst what they feel is their peer group. You may argue that the person doesn’t have a good argument for feeling that way or that we shouldn’t allow it, but not allowing them to compete female sports is excluding them, is it not?
 
mqt said:
I mean, this shouldn’t be controversial. Even if we want to say for the sake of argument that I agree with you that the person in question is male by all definitions, but wants to live and be accepted as a female. By having that person compete as a male, you’re excluding that person from competing as a female amongst what they feel is their peer group. You may argue that the person doesn’t have a good argument for feeling that way or that we shouldn’t allow it, but not allowing them to compete female sports is excluding them, is it not?
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Its a shame boys are excluded from giving birth.

Life is so unfair.
 
thethe said:
Its a shame boys are excluded from giving birth.

Life is so unfair.
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The difference is that we can choose not to exclude these athletes. If giving birth were something we just didn’t allow people to do because of their biological sex, I’d see your point.
 
mqt said:
The difference is that we can choose not to exclude these athletes. If giving birth were something we just didn’t allow people to do because of their biological sex, I’d see your point.
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We have never let boys compete against women in anything other than exhibitions.
 
mqt said:
To be clear, you realize there is no objective right or wrong in these, right? People in the past agreed to these definitions and social norms, and we can collectively change the consensus based on any new data or public perception. None of the things you describe here are based on hard science. ItÂ’s true that people are what we recognize as biologically male or biologically female. It is not fundamentally true that based on those facts that they should use a certain bathroom or play for a certain sports team or be labeled as anything. IÂ’m not trying to tell you that you should agree with me on whether or not making those changes are good for our society or even the individual. I do not believe IÂ’ve called you or anybody else a bigot for holding your views. However, I just donÂ’t see how the other side can just definitively say these people are wrong or mentally ill when the basis for believing that is subjective and based on our previous interpretations of the world.
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You have not called anyone a bigot but you are also far more reasonable than the average politically active person.

My view on this stuff is that prior to having an excess of humanities grads and gender studies and a psychiatry field that relabeled conditions according to political whims, this stuff was settled. There were Mama's boys and tomboys and pretty boys and sporty girls and a few other categories to cover what has become gender, but we acknowledged that whether you were a man or woman, girl or boy, was determined by the sex you were born with.
So if it is suddenly so necessary for tomboys to "identify" as something else that is supposed to more accurately portray who they think they really are, fine. I always thought the term tomboy for a girl was strange anyway. I have no problem calling them a rugged girl, or a masculine girl, or a tough girl, or whatever other term they come up with as their adjective. But the noun is still going to be girl or woman. Because regardless of their self image, despite any sex organ mutilation or hormone manipulation, that's what they are. And we really are costing confused people their sanity, their quality of life, and sometimes their life itself, by pretending otherwise.
 
Jaw said:
You have not called anyone a bigot but you are also far more reasonable than the average politically active person.

My view on this stuff is that prior to having an excess of humanities grads and gender studies and a psychiatry field that relabeled conditions according to political whims, this stuff was settled. There were Mama's boys and tomboys and pretty boys and sporty girls and a few other categories to cover what has become gender, but we acknowledged that whether you were a man or woman, girl or boy, was determined by the sex you were born with.
So if it is suddenly so necessary for tomboys to "identify" as something else that is supposed to more accurately portray who they think they really are, fine. I always thought the term tomboy for a girl was strange anyway. I have no problem calling them a rugged girl, or a masculine girl, or a tough girl, or whatever other term they come up with as their adjective. But the noun is still going to be girl or woman. Because regardless of their self image, despite any sex organ mutilation or hormone manipulation, that's what they are. And we really are costing confused people their sanity, their quality of life, and sometimes their life itself, by pretending otherwise.
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To be fair, there was a lot of stuff that was settled in the past that shouldn’t have been, particularly in the field of psychiatry. Our understanding of the human brain is far from complete today, let alone during the times when these consensuses were reached. It remains to be seen what we learn about the science on this topic, but I can’t say I’m swayed by the teachings of the past as a primary argument.
 
A less long winded way of saying my piece would be that gender applies to preferences or traits, sex applies to biology, and man/woman or boy/girl is a label for a person's sex. That distinction needs to exist, because someone born a boy can never become pregnant and someone born a girl can never achieve the physical prowess that would have been possible if she had been a boy.

He can be the best interior designer, hair stylist, or whatever other traditionally female role he likes, and she can drive bulldozers, swing a hammer, or join the Marines. But he will never be a she, she will never be a he, and they both become something less than either of those things when they try.
 
Ask yourself why this is such a major priority for young children?

A leaked audio recording reveals two teachers at a recent California Teachers Association (CTA) conference mocking parents over their concerns about homosexual and transgender indoctrination at school, says a source who attended the event in Palm Springs, Calif.

The recording, obtained by The Epoch Times, captured two seventh-grade teachers employed by Buena Vista Middle School in Salinas, Calif., telling other teachers how to recruit students into LGBTQ clubs, also known as “Gay-Straight Alliance” (GSA) clubs, at school.

“It was horrifying to listen to not just one teacher but really all of the teachers in all of these seminars, excoriating parents,” said the source, who goes by the pseudonym Rebecca Murphy.

Murphy attended the teachers union conference in late October. She told The Epoch Times the teachers “mocked” parents for their concerns, and suggested they know better than parents about what’s best for their children.

“They laughed at the parents,” Murphy said.

The sold-out CTA conference, billed as the “2021 LGBTQ+ Issues Conference, Beyond the Binary: Identity & Imagining Possibilities,” was held Oct. 29 to 31.

The CTA has hosted similar “Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity” (SOGI) professional development training for at least the last two years, according to an event notice posted on the United Teachers of Los Angeles (UTLA) website, which asks teachers: “Do you have the courage to create a safe environment that fosters bravery to explore sexual orientation, gender identity and expression?”

However, according to Murphy, the conference in Palm Springs appeared to include teachers showing other teachers how to undermine the authority of parents and school administrators and conceal activities related to gender inclusion and sexual orientation from them.

Teachers at the conference also suggested that parents who refuse to call their child by pronouns of the child’s choosing should be arrested and charged with child abuse, Murphy said.

The three classes Murphy attended were designed to recruit middle school students to GSA clubs, she said.

“The overarching theme of the classes that I attended were California teachers instructing other teachers on how to sneak in the LGBTQ+ curriculum in a manner that does not alert parents,” Murphy said.

The two teachers from Buena Vista Middle School led a workshop called “How we run a ‘GSA’ in Conservative Communities,” and they described the obstacles they faced as activist teachers in concealing the activities of these clubs from parents.

In the audio clip, one teacher advised other teachers who lead LGBTQ clubs to maintain an air of plausible deniability so they can play dumb if they are questioned by parents.

“Because we are not official, we have no club rosters. We keep no records,” said the teacher, who is also an LGBTQ club leader. “In fact, sometimes we don’t really want to keep records because if parents get upset that their kids are coming? We’re like, ‘Yeah, I don’t know. Maybe they came?’ You know, we would never want a kid to get in trouble for attending if their parents are upset.”

The other teacher backed up the first teacher, suggesting activist teachers disguise the nature of GSA clubs by calling them something less obvious. She provided an example of this deception, pointing out she avoided naming her LGBTQ club a GSA. Instead, she called it the “Equity Club” and later changed the name to the “You Be You” club.

The teachers bragged about spying on students’ online searches and activity as well as eavesdropping on their conversations to identify and recruit sixth-grade students into these LGBTQ clubs whose membership rolls are kept hidden from parents.

“We totally stalked what they were doing on Google,” one of the teachers said.

Buena Vista Middle School falls under the jurisdiction of the Spreckels Union School District (SUSD). Another nearby district, Salinas Union High School District (SUHSD) has been a center of controversy over its mandatory ninth grade ethnic studies program, which teaches elements of critical race theory.

SUSD Board President Steve McDougall, Superintendent Eric Tarallo, and school board members did not respond to Epoch Times inquiries about the leaked audio.
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https://www.theepochtimes.com/leake...s-into-lgbtq-clubs_4114896.html?welcomeuser=1
 
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