2016 Payroll

Horsehide Harry said:
Come on. Heyward has a marginally better BB rate (if you consider equal plate appearances) and a much better SB rate. Francouer has a significantly better power rate. RBI, which typically doesn't mean much, at least indicates a little since Heyward is on a MUCH better team with almost twice the PA and has one more RBI - again, I don't put much weight in that but there it is.

So, Heyward is a better base stealer (and baserunner if you want to count that) but isn't as productive with the bat, at least so far this year.

Now, I'm not saying Francouer is good. No. I am saying Heyward isn't nearly as good as he is made out to be.

My theory is that people see the potential and assume it's real or will one day be. I also think that his defense gets way, WAY overvalued considering his position (it's not like he's a short stop). Does he rune well? Sure, for a big man he'll steal you a few bases and take an extra base here and there.

But, Francouer isn't a $5M per year player and Heyward isn't a $20M per year player no matter the years.
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His walk rate is 4.2% vs 7.6%. Has him by nearly .15 on average and nearly .40 on OBP. He's MUCH better on the bases and in the field. We're talking a 3 WAR vs a 0 WAR. That's not very similar. This is silly to even argue.
 
Dalyn said:
His walk rate is 4.2% vs 7.6%. Has him by nearly .15 on average and nearly .40 on OBP. He's MUCH better on the bases and in the field. We're talking a 3 WAR vs a 0 WAR. That's not very similar. This is silly to even argue.
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But RBI's...
 
Dalyn said:
His walk rate is 4.2% vs 7.6%. Has him by nearly .15 on average and nearly .40 on OBP. He's MUCH better on the bases and in the field. We're talking a 3 WAR vs a 0 WAR. That's not very similar. This is silly to even argue.
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Francouer has a much better slugging percentage and OPS. Look, I will say again, I don't think Francouer is as good a player. I never said he was. But, if your going to pay a guy $150-$200M it has to be for a significantly better player than Francouer with the BAT. Smart teams don't pay RF for their defense.

WAR is a metric and has it's place. But, in this case it is SH*T. Most of Heyward's WAR value is in his defense.

Heyward isn't worth a $150-$200M contract. It's silly to even argue.
 
Knucksie said:
You mean 5-6 WAR players don't have to hit with runners in scoring position and only have to catch easy fly balls? Damn!
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Yeah. Heyward only catches easy fly balls. All the defensive awards and praise he gets don't mean much. And hitting well with RISP comes and goes.
 
Horsehide Harry said:
Francouer has a much better slugging percentage and OPS. Look, I will say again, I don't think Francouer is as good a player. I never said he was. But, if your going to pay a guy $150-$200M it has to be for a significantly better player than Francouer with the BAT. Smart teams don't pay RF for their defense.

WAR is a metric and has it's place. But, in this case it is SH*T. Most of Heyward's WAR value is in his defense.

Heyward isn't worth a $150-$200M contract. It's silly to even argue.
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He also plays in one of the better hitting parks in the league. Do you use raw numbers for those that play in Coors too?

Also if Francoeur isn't a 770 OPS hitter. He is this year but that's not what you are going to get from him on a regular basis. If he did he wouldn't be making league minimum this year. He's also a horrible defender.

And Heyward's WAR is what it is because he is an all around good player. He has no holes in his game. He's good or better at hitting, base running, and defense. What's not to like?
 
Have you guys ever thought that WAR might be a reflection of how crappy the talent is around the game as opposed to a true metric for excellence? Or even true team usefulness?
 
thewupk said:
He also plays in one of the better hitting parks in the league. Do you use raw numbers for those that play in Coors too?

Also if Francoeur isn't a 770 OPS hitter. He is this year but that's not what you are going to get from him on a regular basis. If he did he wouldn't be making league minimum this year. He's also a horrible defender.

And Heyward's WAR is what it is because he is an all around good player. He has no holes in his game. He's good or better at hitting, base running, and defense. What's not to like?
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Heyward's worth $8-$10M/yr to me, 5 years. Nothing more.
 
I miss Heyward. Now that it makes sense to spend some money I hope there is a possibility for a amicable reconcilaition.
 
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