2018 Offseason And Targets

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clvclv said:
I didn't suggest they should - as a matter of fact I said I wouldn't disagree that price was too high.

I only pointed out that everyone needs to take a step back when complaining about the asking price since I'm relatively sure the vast majority of posters here would've screamed bloody murder if the same situation would've come up at the end of Chipper's tenure.

I'm not sure whether I buy the notion that Gray is a better Pitcher at this point, but people have suggested using Gohara in a deal to get him. Given Gray's monstrous struggles on the big stage in NY vs. Bumgarner's career postseason pedigree, I'd call them a wash at best. If you'd move Gohara for Gray, then why not MadBum? I realize the numbers folks don't like talking about his playoff success when valuing him, but it is a consideration if you're making a push - there still wasn't anyone you wanted Bobby to run out there in games that counted other than Smoltzie, even as he began to slow down.
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I wouldn’t deal Gohara or any of those pitchers for Gray, either. One of Kluber, Bauer, or Carrasco are the pitchers I’d entertain for that set. Paxson would’ve been nice, as would’ve Morton, given his short-term desires and lack of QO. But either Bumgarner or Gray are value bounce-back buys, and if their teams price them higher, then the Braves shouldn’t bite.
 
I know Julio has some control issues but how much of a real upgrade would Gray be? and i sure dont wanna go prospect heavy to get him like the Yankees seem to be asking, MadBum is clearly better but has one year left, I feel like if we are to deal for a starting pitcher it needs to be a clear upgrade with more than 1 year left on their contract.

Julio ERA 4.49 Whip 1.37

Gray ERA 4.90 Whip 1.50

MadBum ERA 3.26 Whip 1.24
 
clvclv said:
I didn't suggest they should - as a matter of fact I said I wouldn't disagree that price was too high.

I only pointed out that everyone needs to take a step back when complaining about the asking price since I'm relatively sure the vast majority of posters here would've screamed bloody murder if the same situation would've come up at the end of Chipper's tenure.

I'm not sure whether I buy the notion that Gray is a better Pitcher at this point, but people have suggested using Gohara in a deal to get him. Given Gray's monstrous struggles on the big stage in NY vs. Bumgarner's career postseason pedigree, I'd call them a wash at best. If you'd move Gohara for Gray, then why not MadBum? I realize the numbers folks don't like talking about his playoff success when valuing him, but it is a consideration if you're making a push - there still wasn't anyone you wanted Bobby to run out there in games that counted other than Smoltzie, even as he began to slow down.
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Gohara being mentioned in a Gray deal is equally bad, IMO. I'm not necessarily high on Gohara, but you don't trade six years of high upside control for one year of an ok pitcher.

Not a problem moving him but save those bullets from something a little bit better.
 
jpx7 said:
I wouldn’t deal Gohara or any of those pitchers for Gray, either. One of Kluber, Bauer, or Carrasco are the pitchers I’d entertain for that set. Paxson would’ve been nice, as would’ve Morton, given his short-term desires and lack of QO. But either Bumgarner or Gray are value bounce-back buys, and if their teams price them higher, then the Braves shouldn’t bite.
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Yep.
 
clvclv said:
I didn't suggest they should - as a matter of fact I said I wouldn't disagree that price was too high.

I only pointed out that everyone needs to take a step back when complaining about the asking price since I'm relatively sure the vast majority of posters here would've screamed bloody murder if the same situation would've come up at the end of Chipper's tenure.

I'm not sure whether I buy the notion that Gray is a better Pitcher at this point, but people have suggested using Gohara in a deal to get him. Given Gray's monstrous struggles on the big stage in NY vs. Bumgarner's career postseason pedigree, I'd call them a wash at best. If you'd move Gohara for Gray, then why not MadBum? I realize the numbers folks don't like talking about his playoff success when valuing him, but it is a consideration if you're making a push - there still wasn't anyone you wanted Bobby to run out there in games that counted other than Smoltzie, even as he began to slow down.
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The only proposals involving Gohara to the Yanks were for Gray and Frazier. I don't remember anyone suggesting Gohara for Gray straight up. That'd be a terrible deal for us.
 
Champman33 said:
I know Julio has some control issues but how much of a real upgrade would Gray be? and i sure dont wanna go prospect heavy to get him like the Yankees seem to be asking, MadBum is clearly better but has one year left, I feel like if we are to deal for a starting pitcher it needs to be a clear upgrade with more than 1 year left on their contract.

Julio ERA 4.49 Whip 1.37

Gray ERA 4.90 Whip 1.50

MadBum ERA 3.26 Whip 1.24
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FOs no longer use such stats to evaluate pitchers.
 
Champman33 said:
I know Julio has some control issues but how much of a real upgrade would Gray be? and i sure dont wanna go prospect heavy to get him like the Yankees seem to be asking, MadBum is clearly better but has one year left, I feel like if we are to deal for a starting pitcher it needs to be a clear upgrade with more than 1 year left on their contract.

Julio ERA 4.49 Whip 1.37

Gray ERA 4.90 Whip 1.50

MadBum ERA 3.26 Whip 1.24
Click to expand...

Gray outside of Yankee Stadium is quite a bit better than Julio. There is an upgrade there imo.
 
Champman33 said:
i realize that and also take into consideration that gray had to deal with the AL East alot but im not willing to give up a 50/55 prospect for him.
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I'm skeptical that you can just disregard his work at Yankee Stadium. I think he's just fine as a buy low candidate with upside or as part of a bigger deal.
 
Champman33 said:
I have followed the board for years and appriciate the advanced stats that you and others have put out, but i still dont see enough of an upgrade to warrant a Gohora, Wilson or even Wentz imo
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I doubt Wentz amounts to much more than current day Gray.
 
jpx7 said:
I wouldn’t deal Gohara or any of those pitchers for Gray, either. One of Kluber, Bauer, or Carrasco are the pitchers I’d entertain for that set. Paxson would’ve been nice, as would’ve Morton, given his short-term desires and lack of QO. But either Bumgarner or Gray are value bounce-back buys, and if their teams price them higher, then the Braves shouldn’t bite.
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Completely understandable. However, at the end of the day, AA has to start moving some of these pieces - even if that results in a questionable deal or two. No one's arguing some trades could turn out to be regrettable, but in the Braves' situation you're going to have to take a couple chances unless there's some influx of cash coming that no one sees. The list of 2019 MLB-ready arms is ridiculous at this point...

Folty (going nowhere), Gausman (going nowhere), Newcomb (likely takes a BIG deal to move him), Julio (likely going nowhere unless you find a sucker)

That leaves you with 9 guys - Touki, Fried, Soroka, Gohara, Wilson, Allard, Parsons, and at some point Weigel and Anderson for the #5 slot and not enough slots at Gwinnett for the rest of them - with a GAPING hole in LF and questionable offensive options at SS, CF, and behind the plate.

If he's scared of moving some of the more highly thought of guys for Realmuto, Haniger, or Peralta because those Pitchers MIGHT reach their ceilings sometime down the road, signing Donaldson was a giant mistake. You just don't do that unless you're making a push, and stopping short of adding the other pieces when they're available SCREAMS the Tex situation all over again. I don't like Pollock's asking price any more than what the rumored returns for the other three options appears to be, but if you're not willing (or can't afford) to pay them why in the *ell did you jump out there and get Donaldson - even for one year??? He's stopping halfway right now - the "to-do list" was upgrading the bench (check), upgrading the pen (meh at best), upgrading a corner OF spot (not even close, but it's fine to argue a healthy Donaldson mitigates that somewhat), and adding someone at the top of the rotation (nope).
 
Southcack77 said:
I'm skeptical that you can just disregard his work at Yankee Stadium. I think he's just fine as a buy low candidate with upside or as part of a bigger deal.
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if the cost is low yes i agree by low, but reports have been Yankees are asking for alot maybe its posturing?
 
Champman33 said:
i realize that and also take into consideration that gray had to deal with the AL East alot but im not willing to give up a 50/55 prospect for him.
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Of course not. I peg Gray as a 2+ WAR guy and he's estimated to get 9-10 in arby. Only way I send a 50 FV guy is if the Yankees eat some salary. That's not likely and the Yankees likely want more than a 45 FV guy. That's why expanding that to add Frazier is a likely situation if talks get deep with Gray.
 
Champman33 said:
I know Julio has some control issues but how much of a real upgrade would Gray be? and i sure dont wanna go prospect heavy to get him like the Yankees seem to be asking, MadBum is clearly better but has one year left, I feel like if we are to deal for a starting pitcher it needs to be a clear upgrade with more than 1 year left on their contract.

Julio ERA 4.49 Whip 1.37

Gray ERA 4.90 Whip 1.50

MadBum ERA 3.26 Whip 1.24
Click to expand...

Post Gray's numbers away from Yankee stadium and I think you'll see a better idea why... considering they were much closer to his norms
 
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