2018 Offseason And Targets

[Carp]

Oh. Sorry.

So he was behind Kyle Crick, Danny Hultzen, Matt Barnes, Taylor Gurrieri, Carlos Martinez, Bauer, Archer, Bradley, Miller, Wacha, Sanchez, Julio, Kyle Zimmer, Gausman, Taillon, Taijuan Walker, Wheeler, Jose Fernandez, Skaggs, Cole, and Bundy.

That means less people missed on him?

Christ, are you really still trying to argue this? By all accounts, he was a highly regarded prospect, as high as 28th and no lower than 54th. Comparitively, Ian Anderson falls in the mid 40's from the recent ones I've seen.

I don't know what relevance posting the players above has to do with the FACT that he was highly regarded as a prospect before the trade.

 

[Carp]

So, here I was 2 years ago arguing that the Braves needed to maximize FF's trade value because the Braves would be unable to reach and sustain critical mass from a good team standpoint until after the majority of his useful life as a player had been engulfed by time. The thinking was that you get 2-3 more very, very good prospects PLUS free Freeman's salary for use at a time when the team could be brought and kept to a state of critical mass. My concern was that the team would develop into a team too good to break up but not good enough to really compete for anything, that holes would be present that couldn't be filled internally and would not be filled externally due to money issues.

I was told that I was FOS, that the Braves would reach into its vast array of pitching prospects and trade for whatever was needed to put them over the hump.

Well, here we are and what do we have? We have the premature ejaculation of the team into the playoff picture driving an offseason imperative of expensive age gambles looking for the fountain of youth and in the dark trade groping hoping for lightning in a bottle short term fixes like JTR aligned with the conclusion of FF's contract, all while trying to avoid the clap while shopping the seedy red light district of late winter free agency.

That's where we are.

And in all likelihood, we wouldn't be spending this money anyways because we wouldn't have been anywhere near a playoff team last year. We most certainly would not have promoted Acuna and Ozzie early. Better than a decent chance Ender would have been traded by now. And it's possible we would be looking to trade Folty now, as he has only 3 years remaining control and on a team coming off a sub .500 record.

Trading Freeman was always a dumb move unless it was a significant overpay. And given his contract (under market, but not a bargain by any means) there is zero way we'd get that sort of overpay without eating money. And our window would be looking like 2020 at the earliest, assuming any prospects from such a trade ever panned out.

 

[Carp]

Could the Braves and Astros be lining up for a Tucker for pitching swap? Or is Tucker going to the Indians for Bauer/Kluber?

If the Astros get Kluber just give them the WS trophy now. It would be quite funny to see Bauer go there after calling them out for cheating last year lol.

 

[Super]

So, here I was 2 years ago arguing that the Braves needed to maximize FF's trade value because the Braves would be unable to reach and sustain critical mass from a good team standpoint until after the majority of his useful life as a player had been engulfed by time. The thinking was that you get 2-3 more very, very good prospects PLUS free Freeman's salary for use at a time when the team could be brought and kept to a state of critical mass. My concern was that the team would develop into a team too good to break up but not good enough to really compete for anything, that holes would be present that couldn't be filled internally and would not be filled externally due to money issues.

I was told that I was FOS, that the Braves would reach into its vast array of pitching prospects and trade for whatever was needed to put them over the hump.

Well, here we are and what do we have? We have the premature ejaculation of the team into the playoff picture driving an offseason imperative of expensive age gambles looking for the fountain of youth and in the dark trade groping hoping for lightning in a bottle short term fixes like JTR aligned with the conclusion of FF's contract, all while trying to avoid the clap while shopping the seedy red light district of late winter free agency.

That's where we are.

na man the idea to trade Freddie still wasn't a good one.

 

[bravesfanMatt]

na man the idea to trade Freddie still wasn't a good one.

There are scenarios that could have us in better shape. 1b is the easiest position to replace. Think about it. One of his favorite trades was getting tucker. He would look nice with Acuna. Then we could have looked to the Ms for Seager and Haniger trade moving seager to first. Then used Ender for pitching. Sign Duda as a platoon and we would still have a ton of money still to spend.

Now I don’t think we are in this pergatory like he is saying. We still have a vast farm system to upgrade the team all the while developing young talent that could still improve to help the team.

 

[Super]

There are scenarios that could have us in better shape. 1b is the easiest position to replace. Think about it. One of his favorite trades was getting tucker. He would look nice with Acuna. Then we could have looked to the Ms for Seager and Haniger trade moving seager to first. Then used Ender for pitching. Sign Duda as a platoon and we would still have a ton of money still to spend.

Now I don’t think we are in this pergatory like he is saying. We still have a vast farm system to upgrade the team all the while developing young talent that could still improve to help the team.

it also made a lot of sense to keep FF, especially not knowing what the return for him would've been. who says we get tucker? i'm sure glad to have FF now.

 

[UNCBlue012]

Could the Braves and Astros be lining up for a Tucker for pitching swap? Or is Tucker going to the Indians for Bauer/Kluber?

There's very little I wouldn't give for Tucker.

 

[bravesfanMatt]

it also made a lot of sense to keep FF, especially not knowing what the return for him would've been. who says we get tucker? i'm sure glad to have FF now.

Completely speculative. Why I said some scenarios. Also why I added the second part. I am fine with FF. He is a producer that is a very underrated defensive player. We still have a lot more bullets in our gun to make this a championship type team.

But I also don’t think you can say keeping him was 100% right either. Is it easier to find a 4-5 war guy to play first or 4-5 war guy to play LF

 

[Super]

Is it easier to find a 4-5 war guy to play first or 4-5 war guy to play LF

i'm not sure? i do know it's easier to keep the one you have than trade for someone you hope is that. 1B has been pretty weak in recent years.

 

[50PoundHead]

So, here I was 2 years ago arguing that the Braves needed to maximize FF's trade value because the Braves would be unable to reach and sustain critical mass from a good team standpoint until after the majority of his useful life as a player had been engulfed by time. The thinking was that you get 2-3 more very, very good prospects PLUS free Freeman's salary for use at a time when the team could be brought and kept to a state of critical mass. My concern was that the team would develop into a team too good to break up but not good enough to really compete for anything, that holes would be present that couldn't be filled internally and would not be filled externally due to money issues.

I was told that I was FOS, that the Braves would reach into its vast array of pitching prospects and trade for whatever was needed to put them over the hump.

Well, here we are and what do we have? We have the premature ejaculation of the team into the playoff picture driving an offseason imperative of expensive age gambles looking for the fountain of youth and in the dark trade groping hoping for lightning in a bottle short term fixes like JTR aligned with the conclusion of FF's contract, all while trying to avoid the clap while shopping the seedy red light district of late winter free agency.

That's where we are.

Wait a minute! I told you that you were only half FOS!

Seriously, you were firm in your conviction and while I disagreed with your premise, your stance wasn't that far out there.

 

[TheRunningAgent]

Christ, are you really still trying to argue this? By all accounts, he was a highly regarded prospect, as high as 28th and no lower than 54th. Comparitively, Ian Anderson falls in the mid 40's from the recent ones I've seen.

I don't know what relevance posting the players above has to do with the FACT that he was highly regarded as a prospect before the trade.

What did you call him?

 

[50PoundHead]

clv doesn't need defending, but (in my role as hall monitor) if I am correctly interpreting the post for which he is being flambeed, his suggestion to trade Acuna is a sarcastic response to HH's stance on trading Freeman way back when.

As for the Dickey trade, it was pretty effin' ridiculous and if there is one thing that worries me a bit about Anthopoulos it's some of the trades he engineered while in Toronto.

 

[Chico]

clv doesn't need defending, but (in my role as hall monitor) if I am correctly interpreting the post for which he is being flambeed, his suggestion to trade Acuna is a sarcastic response to HH's stance on trading Freeman way back when.

As for the Dickey trade, it was pretty effin' ridiculous and if there is one thing that worries me a bit about Anthopoulos it's some of the trades he engineered while in Toronto.

I think his time in LA where they refused to trade away their top prospects might have counter-acted some of his over-willingness to do so in Toronto.

 

[Southcack77]

We have some money but if we wanna splurge, we probably gotta move Julio or maybe even O'Day.

They've only spent 25m.

Some conservative estimates would probably have them with another 25m to spend.

I think that would put them in the 120-125 range, which would line up pretty well with past payrolls and the finances.

 

[Southcack77]

So, here I was 2 years ago arguing that the Braves needed to maximize FF's trade value because the Braves would be unable to reach and sustain critical mass from a good team standpoint until after the majority of his useful life as a player had been engulfed by time. The thinking was that you get 2-3 more very, very good prospects PLUS free Freeman's salary for use at a time when the team could be brought and kept to a state of critical mass. My concern was that the team would develop into a team too good to break up but not good enough to really compete for anything, that holes would be present that couldn't be filled internally and would not be filled externally due to money issues.

I was told that I was FOS, that the Braves would reach into its vast array of pitching prospects and trade for whatever was needed to put them over the hump.

Well, here we are and what do we have? We have the premature ejaculation of the team into the playoff picture driving an offseason imperative of expensive age gambles looking for the fountain of youth and in the dark trade groping hoping for lightning in a bottle short term fixes like JTR aligned with the conclusion of FF's contract, all while trying to avoid the clap while shopping the seedy red light district of late winter free agency.

That's where we are.

Lol.

 

[Southcack77]

And in all likelihood, we wouldn't be spending this money anyways because we wouldn't have been anywhere near a playoff team last year. We most certainly would not have promoted Acuna and Ozzie early. Better than a decent chance Ender would have been traded by now. And it's possible we would be looking to trade Folty now, as he has only 3 years remaining control and on a team coming off a sub .500 record.

Trading Freeman was always a dumb move unless it was a significant overpay. And given his contract (under market, but not a bargain by any means) there is zero way we'd get that sort of overpay without eating money. And our window would be looking like 2020 at the earliest, assuming any prospects from such a trade ever panned out.

Well Harry always wanted to suck for a really extended period so the talent would be even better, so I don't guess he minds not contending until 2020 in that other timeline.

I think you are correct that Freeman's value would be less than he imagines it to have been.

 

[Horsehide Harry]

i'm not sure? i do know it's easier to keep the one you have than trade for someone you hope is that. 1B has been pretty weak in recent years.

I've said all along that it would have been a gamble AND that I would only do it for the right return. But, I thought the right return would have been out there.

And, yes, trading Freeman would have likely pushed the window back to 2020 or later. But, my premise has always been that rushing into the window only to fall short of what is needed to achieve critical mass for a really good team and sustainability (at least for a while) would likely result in a very short window or a purgatory type existence of never being bad enough to give up an rebuild again but also never being good enough to really win anything of substance.

Yes the braves won their division last year and yes it was fun. However, there was a lot of good fortune involved with that, mostly provided by other teams such as the bizarre season the Nats had and the overall disaster that was the NL East for most of the year.

You can't and shouldn't take away the fact that the Braves won 90 games and their division. But we shouldn't fool ourselves that they were some type of powerhouse either. They were a good young team with a lot of holes. So far at least those holes really haven't been filled in any serious way outside of a hail mary type contract/hope given to a one year reclamation that may/may not pay off for 2019 but either way departs as a short term bailing wire fix. And Freeman's time clock keeps ticking.

 

[Southcack77]

Hard to figure what the Braves have to trade that would induce the Astros to move Tucker.

Prospects doesn't really make sense for them.

 

[Southcack77]

Ok, so Donaldson, Ramos, Brantley, a modestly priced leverage reliever were my outline of a plan. Would this have turned out to be feasible?


Donaldson 1/23 23
Ramos 2/19 9.5
Brantley 2/32 16

Could have signed these for 48.5 million this season, just under the 50m I estimate as being about right.

You still have potential salary dumps of Teheran/O'Day and at least one trade. If the number is more like 60m you have ample room for your reliever and another bench bat without a dump.

this was a feasible plan. And as it turned out would have involved no long term commitments, no loss of draft picks, no required spending of prospect dollars.

Look forward to seeing what AA delivers.

 

[nsacpi]

Ok, so Donaldson, Ramos, Brantley, a modestly priced leverage reliever were my outline of a plan. Would this have turned out to be feasible?


Donaldson 1/23 23
Ramos 2/19 9.5
Brantley 2/32 16

Could have signed these for 48.5 million this season, just under the 50m I estimate as being about right.

You still have potential salary dumps of Teheran/O'Day and at least one trade. If the number is more like 60m you have ample room for your reliever and another bench bat without a dump.

this was a feasible plan. And as it turned out would have involved no long term commitments, no loss of draft picks, no required spending of prospect dollars.

Look forward to seeing what AA delivers.

An alternative

Donaldson 23M
McCann 2M
Anibal 5M
Muk 9M
Robertson 10M AAV for 2 years

49M total

Also involves no long term commitments, no loss of picks, and no loss of prospects.