2018: The Year Of The Venezuelan Trout

Southcack77 said:
For the record, I think Acuna is being sent down for money but it really won’t hurt him to see some more of AAA. Make sure he can handle that pitch sequencing that he struggles with in his first seven at bats.

If Braves get production out of LF in his absence it might even be longer than we think.
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All signs point to Acuna being a very good major league player, but spring training is what it is. A few weeks in AAA isn't going to stunt his big league career.
 
The Reds sent out Senzel today and while Senzel doesn't have Acuna's tools, he could well be a more polished player at this juncture. I don't like the rules being what they are as they relate to service time, but the Braves would be nuts to have Acuna on the opening day roster.
 
chop2chip said:
Because the discussion isn’t regarding Heyward as a Cub. It was from the beginning up until clv’s post about he as a prospect and early career. The only point to bringing up the contract is to rile up JHey stans, hence me calling that post trolling.
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Actually that had nothing to do with me bringing it up, but who cares?

This thread has bounced around with posts mentioning trickle-down economics, wealth being stolen from labor, *itching about the previous front office' understanding of the new math, Maddux' BABIP allowed, Snitker's ability (or inability) to manage a bullpen, LOOGYs vs. ROOGYs, Moylan's delivery, and whether or not the Top 10 prospects were as good (or hyped) when Heyward was a prospect as they are today, but that's the post that's singled out???

Are you J-Hey's cousin or something?

The post was made to serve as an example of the fact that even the very best (and most-hyped) prospects don't all work out, and even the numbers-based front offices make mistakes. Use whatever current metrics you like (or will eventually invent) and you'll still find that that deal was a mistake. Sitting here today and making the statement that starting Acuna's clock is a fatal mistake is comical - there's as much chance he turns into Heyward as there is that he turns into Trout. As things stand today, sending him down and delaying his service-time inception is absolutely the prudent move because the CBA allows it - but telling anyone that you KNOW he's going to be making $40 million per (or even Heyward money) is beyond funny.

Tomorrow - much less a HOF career - is promised to no one (no matter what FanGraphs says).
 
50PoundHead said:
The Reds sent out Senzel today and while Senzel doesn't have Acuna's tools, he could well be a more polished player at this juncture. I don't like the rules being what they are as they relate to service time, but the Braves would be nuts to have Acuna on the opening day roster.
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I said the same thing, earlier. The rules are what they are. No need to commit finanicial Chip's Grandpa for the sake 10 games or so.
 
From AJC article about AA's thoughts on sending RA,Jr down, his last thought---

“I thought he handled it exceptionally well,” Anthopoulos said of Acuna’s spring and learning he’d been sent down. “I haven’t gotten to know him very well, but I’ve been very impressed with the maturity level, the way he handles things. I can’t say enough good things about him, his maturity and how he’s handled himself across the spring. Because getting a chance to see him more was good for us, good for me, because I hadn’t seen him.”
 
chop2chip said:
While I agree that this will be a topic of consideration, it’s also one that current players are less invested in. In other words, why should Freddie Freeman care about Acuna’s service time from a monetary stand point? He doesn’t. So while I am sure Freddie wants Acuna on the team and wants Acuna to be treated fairly, he probably doesn’t care about this as much as the qualifying offer, which could affect him in the future.

MLBPA has time and time and time again bargained the rights of amateurs and minor leaguers away for concessions that only benefit themselves. The only way this changes is if a new union leader comes along and refuses to use amateur rights as a bargaining chip, similar to Michelle Roberts in the NBA (who is a lawyer as you mentioned)
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They care because they are finally realizing that delaying service time makes FAs older on average, and older players command lesser contracts.

The players union has been led by incompetent people for years now, and their failure to understand how these rules would affect them is now becoming obvious.
 
I can't believe everyone thinks Acuna Jr will bat sixth in our order when he comes up. He's a textbook #3 hitter to me. It seems even more clear with in our lineup. Didn't we put Chipper in the #3 slot from day 1? Where did Trout hit his first few days?
 
Eyeman said:
I can't believe everyone thinks Acuna Jr will bat sixth in our order when he comes up. He's a textbook #3 hitter to me. It seems even more clear with in our lineup. Didn't we put Chipper in the #3 slot from day 1? Where did Trout hit his first few days?
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Trout batted 7th when he was first recalled in August, 2011, until the end of the 2011 season. He batted lead-off pretty much his entire rookie season in 2012.
 
Enscheff said:
They care because they are finally realizing that delaying service time makes FAs older on average, and older players command lesser contracts.

The players union has been led by incompetent people for years now, and their failure to understand how these rules would affect them is now becoming obvious.
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They weren't incompetent. The players have done quite well on that system and reaped record contracts. If things are changing now it's recent and a sign that ownership is possibly behaving less stupidly.
 
Southcack77 said:
For the record, I think Acuna is being sent down for money but it really won’t hurt him to see some more of AAA. Make sure he can handle that pitch sequencing that he struggles with in his first seven at bats.

If Braves get production out of LF in his absence it might even be longer than we think.
Click to expand...

It all depends how he spends his time in AAA. If he's got good people around him keeping him grounded and helping him develop good baseball habits that will last him his whole career, then it's time well spent.
 
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clvclv said:
Actually that had nothing to do with me bringing it up, but who cares?

This thread has bounced around with posts mentioning trickle-down economics, wealth being stolen from labor, *itching about the previous front office' understanding of the new math, Maddux' BABIP allowed, Snitker's ability (or inability) to manage a bullpen, LOOGYs vs. ROOGYs, Moylan's delivery, and whether or not the Top 10 prospects were as good (or hyped) when Heyward was a prospect as they are today, but that's the post that's singled out???
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What's the point of dragging Heyward through the mud at this point? You're right, this thread has largely been unbearable to read, so don't take it too personally. If Jason Heyward himself was the one to make that post, I would have called him a troll.

clvclv said:
The post was made to serve as an example of the fact that even the very best (and most-hyped) prospects don't all work out, and even the numbers-based front offices make mistakes. Use whatever current metrics you like (or will eventually invent) and you'll still find that that deal was a mistake. Sitting here today and making the statement that starting Acuna's clock is a fatal mistake is comical - there's as much chance he turns into Heyward as there is that he turns into Trout. As things stand today, sending him down and delaying his service-time inception is absolutely the prudent move because the CBA allows it - but telling anyone that you KNOW he's going to be making $40 million per (or even Heyward money) is beyond funny.
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Literally not one human on earth thinks the Heyward contract has worked out. It is literally impossible for a statistician to justify its merits emprically, unless they were to arbitrarily assign an enormous value to his leadership. Stat nerds tend to not like the unquantifiable though (to our fault, IMO).

I studied operations research and consider myself a well-trained statistician. Its my education that's taught me that perfect decision making (and even perfect decision making processes) are simply unattainable. If we knew how to perfectly model risk, the fields of finance and statistics would cease to matter. So when you find yourself turned off by the smarm from some of our resident statisticians, recognize that half the time my eyes are rolling to the back of my head just as much yours are I'm sure.

With that said, I don't understand how you can both acknowledge the obviousness that Acuna needs to be sent down, yet reject the discussion of why he needs to be sent down. Of course its not a given he's going to become an elite player that demands $30 million dollar salary. But trying to understand the potential cost of those extra few weeks of seasoning is absolutely relevant to intelligent baseball discussion and if this bothers you then I think you should avoid participating because its, at worst, inoffensive, and, at best, thought provoking.
 
Enscheff said:
They care because they are finally realizing that delaying service time makes FAs older on average, and older players command lesser contracts.

The players union has been led by incompetent people for years now, and their failure to understand how these rules would affect them is now becoming obvious.
Click to expand...

I'd argue that's they view this as tooth paste already being out of the tube. I don't see why current big leaguers whose clock have already started are incentivized to actually care about when a minor leaguer's service line starts. They may likely prefer it because it leaves more jobs open for the borderline players. I think we need to answer the baseline question of how a current major league player is impacted by Acuna staying in AAA three weeks before we can understand why the MLBPA would fight this issue hard.

Where we do agree though is the incompetence of Tony Clark. The qualifying offer problem needed to be resolved years ago before it became this bonafide, battle-tested salary suppressor. The owners are going to fight like lions to keep it around in some form. It looks like the best course of action at this point would be to raise the minimum salary to decrease the surplus value of young players.
 
Eyeman said:
I can't believe everyone thinks Acuna Jr will bat sixth in our order when he comes up. He's a textbook #3 hitter to me. It seems even more clear with in our lineup. Didn't we put Chipper in the #3 slot from day 1? Where did Trout hit his first few days?
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I doubt they move Freddie out of the three-hole, though I think he'd be a PERFECT cleanup guy to compliment Inciarte-Albies-Acuna.
 
chop2chip said:
I'd argue that's they view this as tooth paste already being out of the tube. I don't see why current big leaguers whose clock have already started are incentivized to actually care about when a minor leaguer's service line starts. They may likely prefer it because it leaves more jobs open for the borderline players. I think we need to answer the baseline question of how a current major league player is impacted by Acuna staying in AAA three weeks before we can understand why the MLBPA would fight this issue hard.

Where we do agree though is the incompetence of Tony Clark. The qualifying offer problem needed to be resolved years ago before it became this bonafide, battle-tested salary suppressor. The owners are going to fight like lions to keep it around in some form. It looks like the best course of action at this point would be to raise the minimum salary to decrease the surplus value of young players.
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You are right if you believe what John makes doesn’t matter to Fred. But in the world of sports what John makes does matter. Fred can use what John makes as barginning chip. Now does a 25 year old Harper make more than a 26 year old Harper. Probably not. But does a 29 year old moose make less than a 28 year old moose. That is the question. If yes then the players should absolutely try to clear that rule. That said. I think the shift to playing younger has already started and it won’t matter what the players do. I don’t think mega contracts for anyone at or near 30 are going to happen much anymore. I think the next big shift will be the owners just guaranteeing younger players up until the 28 to 30 season and then shop the 30+ isle to fill holes. But on shorter contracts.
 
chop2chip said:
I'd argue that's they view this as tooth paste already being out of the tube. I don't see why current big leaguers whose clock have already started are incentivized to actually care about when a minor leaguer's service line starts. They may likely prefer it because it leaves more jobs open for the borderline players. I think we need to answer the baseline question of how a current major league player is impacted by Acuna staying in AAA three weeks before we can understand why the MLBPA would fight this issue hard.

Where we do agree though is the incompetence of Tony Clark. The qualifying offer problem needed to be resolved years ago before it became this bonafide, battle-tested salary suppressor. The owners are going to fight like lions to keep it around in some form. It looks like the best course of action at this point would be to raise the minimum salary to decrease the surplus value of young players.
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Whoever starts the season with the Braves in place of Acuna will earn service time, which affects both pension and free agent status (not that the latter matters that much to someone who will likely be DFA'd).
 
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