4/27 @BOS - Knuckling Under

[nsacpi]

my problem, is that when we traded Kimbrel and Tron, there was no point in keeping FF.. I get we are bad this year.. should see a light next year, but still no chance.. Why not trade FF and free up that money (which is most important for rebuilding team) plus get at least 2 quality hitting prospects..

That being said, I was reading the taxpayer article about the Liberty Media 'trade' for the Braves.. and there was language written by owners that Liberty would keep payroll around where it was when they acquired the Braves (~80) So I wonder if Dumping FF would have made that a violation.. I don't know that answer..

I'm not saying Freeman should not be traded or Simmons should not have been...but you have to look at value and win those trades. I realize not all trades are going to be like Kimbrel or Miller. But when you have a young player under contractual control under terms favorable to the team, you play a bit hard to get and win that trade.

I think there is a problem with the argument that you should empty the team of all its current assets (players like Simmons and Freeman). You need some sort of structure in place when the young uns graduate to the majors. And that structure has to include some vets and one or two stars in their prime. KC held on to Gordon during a pretty lean period, and I think having him there was helpful to the team's rise. The Mets did the same with David Wright.

 

[chop2chip]

Everyone has been worried about Freddie, but the last two weeks he's hitting .300. He's still an excellent hitter with significant trade value.

There may be some wisdom in trading him within the next year, but I think it's silly how some think that boat has already set sail. He's still only 26 years old on a tremendous contract. He's an asset.

 

[clvclv]

I'm not saying Freeman should not be traded or Simmons should not have been...but you have to look at value and win those trades. I realize not all trades are going to be like Kimbrel or Miller. But when you have a young player under contractual control under terms favorable to the team, you play a bit hard to get and win that trade.

I think there is a problem with the argument that you should empty the team of all its current assets (players like Simmons and Freeman). You need some sort of structure in place when the young uns graduate to the majors. And that structure has to include some vets and one or two stars in their prime. KC held on to Gordon during a pretty lean period, and I think having him there was helpful to the team's rise. The Mets did the same with David Wright.

JMO, but I think 50 hit the nail on the head - in trying to follow the brass' reasoning for the Simmons trade, they (correctly) gauged that the market for him was growing softer since he's more of a luxury that a serious contender can afford and that that market would only grow softer moving forward without serious offensive improvement from Andrelton. Could they have gotten more if they'd have held out longer? Possibly. But there was just as much chance that his value could have dropped as well.

There's no doubt Aybar's been awful (although PosiBraves aren't the only ones shocked by just how bad), but taking shots at Coppy trying to spin him as an asset in the press is pretty shortsighted IMO. That's his job, and he wouldn't have it for very long if he announced to reporters that "Simmons' value has nowhere to go but down moving forward, so we traded him for a couple wildcards that may or may not work out and a ****ty warm body at SS that we're going to cut as soon as Albies or Swanson show us they're ready". Truth be told, most people were aware that's what he meant.

chop2chip's right IMO - if there was ONE asset you needed to hold onto unless the return was at least as good as what we got for Miller, it's Freeman. As you mention - he was (and still is) the type of player that will help as a veteran and face-of-the-franchise types who can also be a big part of the next competitive team - whenever that team arrives.

 

[cajunrevenge]

So far this year it looks like Kimbrel is going to continue his trend of throwing harder every year. So far he is averaging 97.3 mph on his fastball which is exactly what it was last year but he usually starts the year with a little velocity loss so I expect that to go higher as the year goes on. His curveball has picked up almost a full mph so far though.

 

[Julio3000]

JMO, but I think 50 hit the nail on the head - in trying to follow the brass' reasoning for the Simmons trade, they (correctly) gauged that the market for him was growing softer since he's more of a luxury that a serious contender can afford and that that market would only grow softer moving forward without serious offensive improvement from Andrelton. Could they have gotten more if they'd have held out longer? Possibly. But there was just as much chance that his value could have dropped as well.

There's no doubt Aybar's been awful (although PosiBraves aren't the only ones shocked by just how bad), but taking shots at Coppy trying to spin him as an asset in the press is pretty shortsighted IMO. That's his job, and he wouldn't have it for very long if he announced to reporters that "Simmons' value has nowhere to go but down moving forward, so we traded him for a couple wildcards that may or may not work out and a ****ty warm body at SS that we're going to cut as soon as Albies or Swanson show us they're ready". Truth be told, most people were aware that's what he meant.

chop2chip's right IMO - if there was ONE asset you needed to hold onto unless the return was at least as good as what we got for Miller, it's Freeman. As you mention - he was (and still is) the type of player that will help as a veteran and face-of-the-franchise types who can also be a big part of the next competitive team - whenever that team arrives.

We got Aybar to have a warm body at short whom we could potentially flip at the first sign of a good deal. We didn't get him with the idea of cutting him. And surely we didn't PLAN to have Albies or Swanson playing SS this year. I just can't buy that.

You're giving Coppy a pass. I get that he had to be complimentary towards Aybar, and that's fine, but he went way beyond that. One can compliment Aybar without making the contrasts with Tron that Coppy made, or suggesting that Aybar makes the team better.

Any other things Coppy said that you—and "most people," apparently—understood differently?

 

[50PoundHead]

We got Aybar to have a warm body at short whom we could potentially flip at the first sign of a good deal. We didn't get him with the idea of cutting him. And surely we didn't PLAN to have Albies or Swanson playing SS this year. I just can't buy that.

You're giving Coppy a pass. I get that he had to be complimentary towards Aybar, and that's fine, but he went way beyond that. One can compliment Aybar without making the contrasts with Tron that Coppy made, or suggesting that Aybar makes the team better.

Any other things Coppy said that you—and "most people," apparently—understood differently?

And I think if Aybar rebounds, they could still flip him at the deadline. I doubt the Cardinals were that interested. Diaz has done a very good job in St. Louis and he was ready to go and should hold down the fort until Peralta returns. Tejada is an adequate back-up. That said, there may be other teams out there looking for a short-term guy who could contribute some flexibility in the middle IF. I don't expect they will get much in return if they do move him.

Again, I don't think Simmons is ever going to replicate his 2013 season and that he was sub-.700 OPS that year. He just can't do anything with the bat (not that Aybar can). He's one of those guys that is highly average-driven and his power numbers have really slid. He doesn't do a good job handling the bat, so even if a team is inclined to play small ball, it's hard to do it with a guy like Simmons. Simmons should have paid closer attention to Martin Prado's offensive approach when both were on the squad in 2012. It would have served him better. You can hide him on an AL squad, but it has become increasingly difficult to have him on an NL squad unless the rest of the team is solid offensively. In that sense, I see him as a luxury player.

Did we get value for him? We'll just have to wait and see. I avoid Coppy's language on the comparison between Aybar and Simmons. The team needed offense and Aybar has been a slightly better offensive player than Simmons throughout his career, so my guess is that was the gist of what Coppy was saying. Unfortunately, Aybar has laid a bigger egg than the best hen at the State Fair and that has poisoned all analysis of the trade.

 

[clvclv]

And I think if Aybar rebounds, they could still flip him at the deadline. I doubt the Cardinals were that interested. Diaz has done a very good job in St. Louis and he was ready to go and should hold down the fort until Peralta returns. Tejada is an adequate back-up. That said, there may be other teams out there looking for a short-term guy who could contribute some flexibility in the middle IF. I don't expect they will get much in return if they do move him.

Again, I don't think Simmons is ever going to replicate his 2013 season and that he was sub-.700 OPS that year. He just can't do anything with the bat (not that Aybar can). He's one of those guys that is highly average-driven and his power numbers have really slid. He doesn't do a good job handling the bat, so even if a team is inclined to play small ball, it's hard to do it with a guy like Simmons. Simmons should have paid closer attention to Martin Prado's offensive approach when both were on the squad in 2012. It would have served him better. You can hide him on an AL squad, but it has become increasingly difficult to have him on an NL squad unless the rest of the team is solid offensively. In that sense, I see him as a luxury player.

Did we get value for him? We'll just have to wait and see. I avoid Coppy's language on the comparison between Aybar and Simmons. The team needed offense and Aybar has been a slightly better offensive player than Simmons throughout his career, so my guess is that was the gist of what Coppy was saying. Unfortunately, Aybar has laid a bigger egg than the best hen at the State Fair and that has poisoned all analysis of the trade.

This is the gist of my point as well Julio. Getting tied up in what Coppy or any other executive says when they're speaking GM-Speak is just looking for something to take issue with because you want to be able to fry him for something - which is absolutely your right - it just paints you as more of a nit-picker to me. Not to defend it (or crucify it), but speaking in glowing terms about EVERY player we control has long been a part of "The Braves' Way" whether anyone likes it (or believes it) or not. Bobby's always done it, JS did it starting the day he came to town, Wren did it, Hart started the day he came in, and now Coppy does it. It's what you're expected to do when you're in their position. They KNOW more knowledgeable fans (like the ones here) see through the majority of what's blatant GM-Speak, but the vast majority of Braves fans don't know this place exists or don't take the time to do more background - they're trying to hold onto those fans as well. Given the attendance issues the team faced when it was much better, they know that it's certainly not going to do anything but get worse if they come right out and tell the fairweather fans "we'll be good again in a few years". Most people here knew being competitive (as in a playoff team) by 2017 was going to be a huge stretch (although not completely impossible IF they were/are able to go out and sign a couple of expensive pieces), and I don't think many posters ever denied that. A HUGE number of things would have to fall in our favor, but impossible infers just that - no chance, not just unlikely. Speaking as a PosiBrave, I've never said it was likely, just not impossible.

It's really all about semantics IMO. NegaBraves here want to break down every last word that comes out of the brass' mouths and the posts PosiBraves make as if they're presenting them as "certainties", and PosiBraves are just as guilty of labeling NegaBraves as haters - when that's not necessarily always the case. Everybody (on either side) is just frustrated because there's no magic pill to make the rebuild/reload/retool/pick your favorite term go faster.

 

[clvclv]

We got Aybar to have a warm body at short whom we could potentially flip at the first sign of a good deal. We didn't get him with the idea of cutting him. And surely we didn't PLAN to have Albies or Swanson playing SS this year. I just can't buy that.

You're giving Coppy a pass. I get that he had to be complimentary towards Aybar, and that's fine, but he went way beyond that. One can compliment Aybar without making the contrasts with Tron that Coppy made, or suggesting that Aybar makes the team better.

Any other things Coppy said that you—and "most people," apparently—understood differently?

Whether any of us buys that, they said that it wasn't out of the question the day camp opened. They said that it certainly wouldn't be ideal, but that they'd let the players decide that on the field rather than just close the door on it. Albies and Swanson were arguably the best offensive players in the organization during camp, and neither has shown signs of slowing down - even with the extremely challenging assignment for Albies to start the year.

 

[Braves1976]

It is also worth mentioning that the criticism of the Simmons trade is not just an ex post thing. A number of us complained at the time of the trade that the return was light. We also pointed out the holes in logic of acquiring Aybar when we would not be playing for anything this year. Is it fair to bring up Coppolella's strange reasoning about Aybar? I think so, given that it goes to the question of whether the FO is capable of formulating and adhering to a plan.

Exactly. Plus there are some posters that try to be demanding that their own opinions be followed by the rest of us. They try really hard to dictate the discussion and act like we cannot disagree with the FO on anything. I understand that in their minds to question the FO is to question the Braves period. Bottom line: I don't buy into that mindset, I can think for myself and I refuse to listen to anyone acting like I am a bad fan that should go cheer for another team when I do so.

 

[mossy]

Why do you need validation? Why stay mad at a trade you can't change? Seems like a waste of time.

 

[Braves1976]

Why do you need validation? Why stay mad at a trade you can't change? Seems like a waste of time.

Why do you assume such nonsense, do you assume the owner of this forum needs validation and is just angry when he's said more about missing Simmons of late than anyone?

 

[Dalyn]

Why do you assume such nonsense, do you assume the owner of this forum needs validation and is just angry when he's said more about missing Simmons of late than anyone?

The Don just cares about making the Braves great again.

 

[Braves1976]

The Don just cares about making the Braves great again.

Obviously, I support The Don here and feel the same way as him about Simmons. But we both just need to be validated and are angry?

 

[The Tariff King]

Jeez all this drama.

Everyone take a chill pill. Just relax as if nothing bad is happening like our Manager, Fredi Gonzalez.

I miss Simmons and Heyward and Kimbrel to an extent. I assume most people do as well and until Ozzie and Dansby come up and tear up the majors we will continue to reminisce about Hey aND Simmons. Once Rutherford/Lewis becomes a regular starter we'll forget about Heyward aND it won't be brought up as much. And once Dansby and Oz come up and become good we'll quietly forget Simmons.

 

[The Tariff King]

Can we take a collective vow not to get personal and nasty with or another? Or are we gonna break that like our Front Office did.

 

[jpx7]

Can we take a collective vow not to get personal and nasty with or another? Or are we gonna break that like our Front Office did.

 

[Dalyn]

Looks to me like you need a spotter.

 

[clvclv]

Exactly. Plus there are some posters that try to be demanding that their own opinions be followed by the rest of us. They try really hard to dictate the discussion and act like we cannot disagree with the FO on anything. I understand that in their minds to question the FO is to question the Braves period. Bottom line: I don't buy into that mindset, I can think for myself and I refuse to listen to anyone acting like I am a bad fan that should go cheer for another team when I do so.

Don't be such a wimp. I've gone out of my way to consistently say that my opinion carries no more weight (nor should it) than anyone else's - and it's obvious that no one's changing others' opinions around here. I absolutely believe everyone's opinion is as valid as mine (or anyone else's) as long as they're willing to stand by it. FWIW, I've defended yours more than once. Just don't go running for cover and hiding from being wrong if/when you are. I'm wrong at least as often as anyone else here. If you didn't want to trade Simmons because he was your favorite player, that's fine (and understandable) - just don't act like he would've made this team any better, because he wouldn't have.

 

[clvclv]

The Don just cares about making the Braves great again.

As do we all - I hope anyway.

 

[Braves1976]

Don't be such a wimp. I've gone out of my way to consistently say that my opinion carries no more weight (nor should it) than anyone else's - and it's obvious that no one's changing others' opinions around here. I absolutely believe everyone's opinion is as valid as mine (or anyone else's) as long as they're willing to stand by it. FWIW, I've defended yours more than once. Just don't go running for cover and hiding from being wrong if/when you are. I'm wrong at least as often as anyone else here. If you didn't want to trade Simmons because he was your favorite player, that's fine (and understandable) - just don't act like he would've made this team any better, because he wouldn't have.

Do you even read what you type? I'm not going back at you this time out of respect for The Don posts above asking us not to. I will just say if you don't think having Simmons at short would make this team "any better" I cannot help you. But I have never suggested or implied that we'd be much better with Simmons this year. This is a rebuild year after all. Enough said.