Boston writer advocating acquiring Jason Heyward in the off season

zitothebrave said:
Yes thanks for posting that espeically. the part at the end.

Basically what you're saying is that even if the stats we 95% accurate, they're worthless because they're not perfect. I love it of course.

I guess you don't believe in batting average, as it's an approximation.
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At what point did I saw they are worthless? I have REPEATEDLY said they are useful in giving you a good idea on who is good, average, or bad defensively. But how anyone can define the stats as accurate (or accurate enough to use in a value based formula) is ridiculous.

And who says they are even 95% accruate?

And the whole point of the article is to PROVE you wrong about how defensive reputation can create bias. It doesn't change the fact that most stats don't account for defensive positioning (which can have a HUGE affect in stats like UZR).
 
thewupk said:
Ichiro did his rookie year. 124 WRC+ and a 6 WAR season because of defense and base running. Heyward will have his power back next year. And he is someone that is going to be in the 120 WRC+ area who will have a 6+ WAR season due to defense and base running.
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He also led the free world in batting average at .350 and was a media sensation. Don't try to kid yourself into thinking he won primarily because of defense and base running (though I'm sure they certainly helped his cause)

A better argument would be Simmons last yr finishing 14th in MVP voting despite very pedestrian offensive numbers.
 
Carp said:
He also led the free world in batting average at .350 and was a media sensation. Don't try to kid yourself into thinking he won primarily because of defense and base running (though I'm sure they certainly helped his cause)

A better argument would be Simmons last yr finishing 14th in MVP voting despite very pedestrian offensive numbers.
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Just stating that it has happened regardless of what else went with it. Good hitting and elite defensive outfielders have won MVPs before. Not that an actual MVP award means anything anyways. You either play at an MVP level or you don't. And 6+ WAR seasons is an MVP level.
 
cajunrevenge said:
I don't think we are far from determining defensive value but I do think defense is over valued in the WAR formula. If Heywood is so great defensively he needs to be in center. Even if he is just above average in center it is a more important defensive position. Then maybe he will be worth 20+ mill a year. This would also make it much easier to find a bat for a corner outfield spot. Any center fielder who can put up a .800 OPS and play even below average defense is considered a star player.
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Going to center also cuts into Heyward shelf life but I guess that doesn't matter if you only keep him in his prime years.
 
Heyward said:
We're maybe 4th at best.

LA/Wsh/Stl are clearly better.



Jason is my favorite player but if he wont re-sign, i dont see why you dont trade him.

Provided he would turn down an extension.

Throw in teams like Mil, SF, Pit, etc.

We're not as good as you and others seem to think.
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Based on 5 months this year? What about last year when most of these teams have the same players. The only team I would say is clearly better is LA. The Nats happened to hit a 10 game win streak while the Braves were ending an 8 game losing stream. Bad timing.
 
Carp said:
At what point did I saw they are worthless? I have REPEATEDLY said they are useful in giving you a good idea on who is good, average, or bad defensively. But how anyone can define the stats as accurate (or accurate enough to use in a value based formula) is ridiculous.

And who says they are even 95% accruate?

And the whole point of the article is to PROVE you wrong about how defensive reputation can create bias. It doesn't change the fact that most stats don't account for defensive positioning (which can have a HUGE affect in stats like UZR).
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But it doesn't anymore thanks to more advanced tracking methods. Of course there are still issues, but barring a super genius positioning or super stupid it's marginal. Especially in the OF where positioning is minimal. And a player like say Andruw Jones who could play up closer to the IF because of his amazing ability to get back shouldn't be punished for robbing some singles cause of his competitive advantage.
 
thewupk said:
Ichiro did his rookie year. 124 WRC+ and a 6 WAR season because of defense and base running. Heyward will have his power back next year. And he is someone that is going to be in the 120 WRC+ area who will have a 6+ WAR season due to defense and base running.
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Ichiro hit .350 with 56 stolen bases, stats that MVP voters love.
 
thewupk said:
MVP voters love a lot of things depending on who actually wins the MVP. Same with other awards. Heyward is a 6 WAR player. He is legit.
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Imagine if he was actually more than a slightly above average hitter. His WAR might not be able to be calculated.
 
Yes, it still does. Did you even read the post or did you just skip the parts that destroyed your argument?
 
Heyward had a horrid April, but since then he has been pretty good, despite the lack of power:

.286/.362/.411

That's a .773 OPS and that's with a severe dip in power. The MLB OPS average is .703, by the way. But don't let that get in the way of GF's hate.

Oh... and Bryce Harper is severely outpacing him with a robust .716 OPS. I wonder if GF considers him "so bad" as he recently described Heyward?
 
You can't just forget about his April #'s though. It's great that Heyward has been performing better since then, but the season as a whole has to be considered.
 
Carp said:
You can't just forget about his April #'s though. It's great that Heyward has been performing better since then, but the season as a whole has to be considered.
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I agree. And it is. But let's remember the guy was basically coming fresh off of taking a 90+ MPH fastball to the face. I'm OK with giving him a month to settle back in.

He's been good since then. Not awesome, but good.
 
sturg33 said:
Heyward had a horrid April, but since then he has been pretty good, despite the lack of power:

.286/.362/.411

That's a .773 OPS and that's with a severe dip in power. The MLB OPS average is .703, by the way. But don't let that get in the way of GF's hate.

Oh... and Bryce Harper is severely outpacing him with a robust .716 OPS. I wonder if GF considers him "so bad" as he recently described Heyward?
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What is his OPS if you take out every month that Heyward didn't hit well in? Gotta be pretty good.

I don't hate Heyward at all. I just think its comical how a handful of people on the board overate him by using baserunning and defense to claim he's an MVP caliber player.

That taking out his bad month and using .773 OPS is pretty close to his career average of .784 (114 OPS+). That's above average (average OPS for a RF during his time in the majors is between .743 and .772)

Harper has a career OPS of .809 (118 OPS+) at age 21.
 
sturg33 said:
Heyward had a horrid April, but since then he has been pretty good, despite the lack of power:

.286/.362/.411

That's a .773 OPS and that's with a severe dip in power. The MLB OPS average is .703, by the way. But don't let that get in the way of GF's hate.

Oh... and Bryce Harper is severely outpacing him with a robust .716 OPS. I wonder if GF considers him "so bad" as he recently described Heyward?
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Where was "so bad" used and what context, please.
 
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