Confederate Monuments

zitothebrave said:
Why shouldn't they feel emboldened?

Here's the reality, Lee, Jackson, Jefferson Davis, etc. are all traitors. THey're all losers. Did we erect monuments to Benedict Arnold, Cornwallis, or King George II after the Revolution? I don't recall a plethora of Grant or Sherman statues.
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They absolutely should feel emboldened because they have effectively silenced anyone with a dissenting viewpoint or else they risk getting fired or labeled a nazi. Really nice work by them. On to the next one, i'll bet.

by the way - I don't think the founders would view Lee as a traitor... I could be wrong, of course
 
sturg33 said:
by the way - I don't think the founders would view Lee as a traitor... I could be wrong, of course
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I think they absolutely would have. Some may not have, but George Washington for example absolutely and effectively established the power of the Federal Government under the Constitution by using militias and the army to shut down insurrection against the new government. Something that failed the Articles of the Confederation.
 
zitothebrave said:
I think they absolutely would have. Some may not have, but George Washington for example absolutely and effectively established the power of the Federal Government under the Constitution by using militias and the army to shut down insurrection against the new government. Something that failed the Articles of the Confederation.
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The founders were also adamant about state's rights and were perfectly comfortable with revolutionary acts to stop tyrannical government overreach.
 
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DaneHill said:
Hawk, I was actually taught in high school (Virginia) that the Civil War was about much more than slavery and that slavery is just the predominant reason passed down through our history. It was a while ago, so specifics escape me, but I want to say one big issue was economics and the tobacco crop industry. Anyway, I just recall being surprised about the other big issues that led to war and slavery was just a secondary issue later.

As for the Charlottesville protest, come on, there is no way some innocent person is just going to go hang out with a bunch of screaming white nationalists and Nazis because they didn't want to see this statue taken down. If that was their intention when the left the house, then I would bet they either turned right around when the saw the reality of the protest or stuck around only through the first 'Sieg Heil!' Let's follow that logic further, when the alt-right protesters began chanting 'Blood and Soil!', 'Jews will not replace us!' or 'F__k you, ***gots!', if those innocent protesters joined in, then they are no better and deserve condemnation not praise. I highly doubt they would have spoke up to their fellow protesters and said 'No no, guys, that's too far. That's not what we're here for. It's about the statue, remember? Can I get another tiki torch, mine went out?'
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I had been in the "good people mixed in with bad people" camp, but this changed my mind. You are absolutely right, some good folks may have shown up, but they would have turned right around and gotten the heck out of there.

Your high school history lesson matches my own recollection. Economics (I think a big tax law that impacted the South disproportionately), and the power and role of the federal government were big reasons. Of course slavery was as well, and happened to intersect both of those in a big way. And then that leads into the belief of most at the time that the 10th Amendment made it clear that the states had the right to leave, but there probably isn't much reason to get into that here.
 
I think we are learning that political correctness has become the providence of white protestant males.
On a number of issues -- Hillary -- among white males bashing HRC is by their definition, "politically correct"

We are learning that defending Lee etal has for 100 years been the politically correct thing to do.
Hmm
 
Jaw said:
I had been in the "good people mixed in with bad people" camp, but this changed my mind. You are absolutely right, some good folks may have shown up, but they would have turned right around and gotten the heck out of there.

Your high school history lesson matches my own recollection. Economics (I think a big tax law that impacted the South disproportionately), and the power and role of the federal government were big reasons. Of course slavery was as well, and happened to intersect both of those in a big way. And then that leads into the belief of most at the time that the 10th Amendment made it clear that the states had the right to leave, but there probably isn't much reason to get into that here.
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I've always wondered why Lincoln didn't just buy the slaves and free them? It would have cost less in $ and human life than the civil war.

But then again, I don't believe the civil war was solely about slavery - so that is probably the biggest reason why
 
sturg33 said:
The founders were also adamant about state's rights and were perfectly comfortable with revolutionary acts to stop tyrannical government overreach.
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They were not universally adamant about states rights or anti-overreach. Jefferson for example violated the constitutional limit of powers in both the Louisiana purchase and the Embargo Act of 1807. Adams and his Federalist compatriots passed the highly unconstitutional Alien and Sedition Acts, and others if I wanted to list more.
 
Hawk said:
Let's do start with a contemporary analysis of "whitewashing" of the Confederacy, please.

I'm dying to learn more about this alternate view of history, where the Civil War was not fought over slavery.

I provided a tidy list of peoples, organizations, and mentalities two or so days ago. Since that didn't resound, I'll try to make it as simple as I possibly can; any person who attended the protest in support of the statue for ideological subscriptions non-embracive of white nationalism/supremacism/neo-nazism.

I understand your position is that every soul who attended for said cause is indirectly a neo-Nazi/racist/white nationalist/supremacist, though, so I get the inkling we aren't going to find common ground here.
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Wait, the list that included NSM?
 
And you're criticizing me, [MENTION=266]Hawk[/MENTION], for people who looked at therightstuff, Daily Stormer, David Duke et al and thought "yeah, this is fine"...

That's just...a mess.
 
I can generally speak to the baseline creed of groups like Proud Boys/FOAK (McInnes) or the Patriot/Constitutional Militia movement (and their various charters), organizations like NSM or alt-lite/alt-right subgroups that don't latch onto the supremacist angle, yeah, absolutely.
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How did I misinterpret this?
 
Julio3000 said:
And you're criticizing me, [MENTION=266]Hawk[/MENTION], for people who looked at therightstuff, Daily Stormer, David Duke et al and thought "yeah, this is fine"...

That's just...a mess.
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Well look at the moral prerogative on this one.

I've seen this 'hot take' make the rounds the past day or so, but I find it so pointlessly anecdotal that it's not even worth touching.
 
Hawk said:
Well look at the moral prerogative on this one.

I've seen this 'hot take' make the rounds the past day or so, but I find it so pointlessly anecdotal that it's not even worth touching.
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That's a disappointing and frankly cowardly evasion.
 
JULIO: So let's do play the "answer my question" game, since you did it with me. Which ones of these 25 groups are good and admirable? Can you post a list for discussion? Can you speak to their judgment and good intentions, appearing at an event whose featured speakers' contribution to the national discourse amounts to jokes about putting Jews in ovens?
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HAWK: I can generally speak to the baseline creed of groups like Proud Boys/FOAK (McInnes) or the Patriot/Constitutional Militia movement (and their various charters), organizations like NSM or alt-lite/alt-right subgroups that don't latch onto the supremacist angle, yeah, absolutely.
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HAWK: But I guess I'm trying to figure out what is going to be accomplished, or rather what you think is going to be accomplished, by going down a list of names/groups, line item, trying to impartially qualify which are 'good' and which are 'admirable' (all the while making bombastic inferences about their intentions because they were at the same protest as Neo-Nazis and Neo-Confederates).
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Trying to figure out where here I've put NSM on a list of good people.
 
Julio3000 said:
I honestly have no idea what you're saying. That's not facetious or snarky.
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You asked me if I could speak to the "judgement" and "good intentions" of right-wing groups at the rally/protest.

I told you that I could speak about the basic ideology of groups like Proud Boys OR the militia movement, NSM OR the alt-lite/alt-right as a means to contrast intentions, but then I questioned the actual usefulness of that approach given that I felt you were likely to continue to lasso all of them into the same categorization.

I never said that NSM was one of the "good guys" (as you have insinuated multiple times, now over the course of two separate threads).

I guess, in retrospect, I never actually thought you were serious about thinking that every right-winger at the rally was a neo-Nazi/white nationalist/supremacist.
 
Ho hum....

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/aug/16/rahm-emanuel-urged-by-chicago-pastor-to-remove-geo/

Bishop James E. Dukes of Chicago’s Liberation Christian Center made headlines in the Windy City on Wednesday for calling on Mayor Rahm Emanuel to rename Washington Park and remove a statue of the first U.S. president over his ties to slavery. Mr. Dukes told his Facebook flock that “it’s time” after Mr. Trump sparred with reporters over efforts to expunge Civil War-era monuments from existence.

“This week it’s Robert E. Lee. I noticed that Stonewall Jackson is coming down. I wonder is it George Washington next week and is it Thomas Jefferson the week after? You know, you really do have to ask yourself, where does it stop?” Mr. Trump asked reporters on Tuesday as he spoke on last weekend’s violence in Charlottesville, Virginia.

“It’s time. Please read my letter to Mayor Rahm Emanuel and The Chicago Park District,” Mr. Dukes wrote on Facebook Tuesday night. “I’m calling on them to change the names of Washington and Jackson Park. Slave owners do not deserve the honor of our children playing in parks named after them. There is no way a Native American Community would allow a General Custer Park or a Jewish Community allow a Gestapo Park in their community.”
 
IMO you can't just sweep away the guilt by association arguement 'cause you say it's a "hot take." I asked the same thing days ago and you ignored it then, too...because we're supposed to use our big ol' brains to rationally determine that some folks are ws and some aren't, when they're all in a rally explicitly organized by and for white supremacists.

So I say--repeatedly--cool, who are the good guy? And you say, well, I don't really want to say, but basically anyone who's not a white supremacist.
 
Julio3000 said:
IMO you can't just sweep away the guilt by association arguement 'cause you say it's a "hot take." I asked the same thing days ago and you ignored it then, too...because we're supposed to use our big ol' brains to rationally determine that some folks are ws and some aren't, when they're all in a rally explicitly organized by and for white supremacists.

So I say--repeatedly--cool, who are the good guy? And you say, well, I don't really want to say, but basically anyone who's not a white supremacist.
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You haven't addressed my question about the communist symbol. Does everyone who marches along of them represent murderous regimes?

Serious question.
 
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