Dissension in the front office?

zitothebrave said:
How dare you mention he who should not be named. He's persona non grata. We fired everyone pertaining to him, except the President, and special advisors, and a **** ton of other people.

What I found the funniest about the Wren fiasco isn't would we be in a better place with him or not because I don't think that's particularly relevant, though Wren IMO had a better trade record than JS or Coppy.

First big move was trading Renteria for Jurrjens and Hernandez. Which is about equal return we got for Heyward and Renteria was no Heyward. He also brought in INfante for nothing. Wren then made the brilliant Vazquez trade which was huge for us, and then he flipped him again for a hugely positive return if Melky Cabrera had decided to take steroids one year earlier it would have been lights out.

Kicker is from what I have read most of Wren's bad moves weren't his fault really. Letting Francisco go had to do with Cox wanting an extra OF or pitcher I forget which, Same with the Tex trade and signing Garret Anderson.

And then in the end, Wren was fired for wanting to fire Bobby's boy Fredi. Which of course was the right move to make given that in all of 2015 and 2016 he showed even more ineptitude and his gross mismanagement of players in 2014 was why we blew the lead. Wren screwed up in 2014 of course, but Fredi was the biggest reason for our failure.
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So Wren was responsible for all the good moves but the bad moves were other peoples faults.

Got it.
 
thethe said:
So Wren was responsible for all the good moves but the bad moves were other peoples faults.

Got it.
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Not true. Wren is responsible for extending Uggla and Chris Johnson, Wren is responsible for offering Lowe 1 extra year rather than backing away from the table. Wren is responsible for the nothingness that was Kawakami and the sunk costs of Glavine. Wren made a litany of bad moves. But most of what bestowed his moves to being bad was bad luck like the collapse of Melvin and McLouth. Uggla trade without an extension would have been fine. Or a more reasonable higher dollar but lower year extension (say 3/45) would have hurt less. But again, most people didn't really cringe at Uggla's extension aside from the last 2 years. MOst thought he'd be a bargain for 2-3 years. Certainly everyone thought he'd help the BRaves win immediately.
 
zitothebrave said:
Not true. Wren is responsible for extending Uggla and Chris Johnson, Wren is responsible for offering Lowe 1 extra year rather than backing away from the table. Wren is responsible for the nothingness that was Kawakami and the sunk costs of Glavine. Wren made a litany of bad moves. But most of what bestowed his moves to being bad was bad luck like the collapse of Melvin and McLouth. Uggla trade without an extension would have been fine. Or a more reasonable higher dollar but lower year extension (say 3/45) would have hurt less. But again, most people didn't really cringe at Uggla's extension aside from the last 2 years. MOst thought he'd be a bargain for 2-3 years. Certainly everyone thought he'd help the BRaves win immediately.
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This is much different from 'Kicker is from what I have read most of Wren's bad moves weren't his fault really.'
 
zitothebrave said:
Not true. Wren is responsible for extending Uggla and Chris Johnson, Wren is responsible for offering Lowe 1 extra year rather than backing away from the table. Wren is responsible for the nothingness that was Kawakami and the sunk costs of Glavine. Wren made a litany of bad moves. But most of what bestowed his moves to being bad was bad luck like the collapse of Melvin and McLouth. Uggla trade without an extension would have been fine. Or a more reasonable higher dollar but lower year extension (say 3/45) would have hurt less. But again, most people didn't really cringe at Uggla's extension aside from the last 2 years. MOst thought he'd be a bargain for 2-3 years. Certainly everyone thought he'd help the BRaves win immediately.
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Actually, I would disagree that extending CJ was Wren's doing. CJ was extended May 2 of 2014. Here is an article from a few months earlier crediting Hart with all the recent extensions (Heyward, Simmons, Theran, Kimbrel): http://m.mlb.com/news/article/68241730/john-hart-paved-way-for-atlanta-braves-long-term-extensions/

The CJ extension was likely a result of the FO being drunk from all the goodwill flowing when Hart extended all those players. Somehow, they misidentified CJ as part of the "young core".

The Uggla extension probably does fall on Wren though.

He also bid against himself when he gave BJ way too much cash.

Nobody could have foreseen the McLouth disaster though.

Lowe was OK.

KK was a disaster, especially with Hanson waiting in the minors (I think, was a long time ago).
 
I actually think it's shockingly low-rent and classless for Law to publicly go along with the idea that Rosenthal was just doing the Wrens' bidding and spreading venom on their behalf.

If you have evidence of that, by all means, write the story. And if you want to criticize Rosenthal's piece, that's fair. But speculating in that way about a respected reporter without evidence is bull****.
 
MadduxFanII said:
I actually think it's shockingly low-rent and classless for Law to publicly go along with the idea that Rosenthal was just doing the Wrens' bidding and spreading venom on their behalf.

If you have evidence of that, by all means, write the story. And if you want to criticize Rosenthal's piece, that's fair. But speculating in that way about a respected reporter without evidence is bull****.
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Jeff Wren wants to fight about which baseball media is the bigger suckup. Entertaining.

[MENTION=1664]keithlaw[/MENTION] before you start attributing my family to stories about your buddy Coppy ... Get your facts straight. Keep blowing him!
 
Enscheff said:
Actually, I would disagree that extending CJ was Wren's doing. CJ was extended May 2 of 2014. Here is an article from a few months earlier crediting Hart with all the recent extensions (Heyward, Simmons, Theran, Kimbrel): http://m.mlb.com/news/article/68241730/john-hart-paved-way-for-atlanta-braves-long-term-extensions/

The CJ extension was likely a result of the FO being drunk from all the goodwill flowing when Hart extended all those players. Somehow, they misidentified CJ as part of the "young core".

The Uggla extension probably does fall on Wren though.

He also bid against himself when he gave BJ way too much cash.

Nobody could have foreseen the McLouth disaster though.

Lowe was OK.

KK was a disaster, especially with Hanson waiting in the minors (I think, was a long time ago).
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Lowe was OK except for that last year. As I recall the Mets offered 4/44 we offered 4/48 and he wasn't interested without that last year. SOmething to that regard.

BJ part was largely praised. The bidding vs. ourselves thing isn't really true, we more didn't want to get caught in a similar situation with Lowe were there was only one decent person on the market and we were bidding vs. someone else. As it was the Twins traded both Revere and Span which no one expected and it diluted the CF market. It was a gambit that truly bit us in the ass.
 
zitothebrave said:
Lowe was OK except for that last year. As I recall the Mets offered 4/44 we offered 4/48 and he wasn't interested without that last year. SOmething to that regard.

BJ part was largely praised. The bidding vs. ourselves thing isn't really true, we more didn't want to get caught in a similar situation with Lowe were there was only one decent person on the market and we were bidding vs. someone else. As it was the Twins traded both Revere and Span which no one expected and it diluted the CF market. It was a gambit that truly bit us in the ass.
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he was all right but the Braves were paying him 18 million or something like when that was a ton of money.

They spent to sign an ace and got a rotation piece. That was the problem. I wouldn't call it a success but it wasn't a total failure as maybe you pointed out the other day.
 
MadduxFanII said:
I actually think it's shockingly low-rent and classless for Law to publicly go along with the idea that Rosenthal was just doing the Wrens' bidding and spreading venom on their behalf.

If you have evidence of that, by all means, write the story. And if you want to criticize Rosenthal's piece, that's fair. But speculating in that way about a respected reporter without evidence is bull****.
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Law has always been a little ****.
 
Southcack77 said:
he was all right but the Braves were paying him 18 million or something like when that was a ton of money.

They spent to sign an ace and got a rotation piece. That was the problem. I wouldn't call it a success but it wasn't a total failure as maybe you pointed out the other day.
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Braves paid him just over 15M. Which was a lot for the Braves, but it wasn't more than he was projected IIRC. I think the pravailing thought on him was like 5/70.
 
Southcack77 said:
Jeff Wren wants to fight about which baseball media is the bigger suckup. Entertaining.

[MENTION=1664]keithlaw[/MENTION] before you start attributing my family to stories about your buddy Coppy ... Get your facts straight. Keep blowing him!
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Woah... Did someone say low rent and classless?
 
This was taking chop's take on the Lowe trade. Ha. Sounds like thethe was on staff:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Nice. That's going to be a nice rotation:

Derek Lowe

Kenshin Kawakami

Javier Vazquez

Jair Jurrjens

Jorge Campillo

That reminds me of a vintage 1990's Braves rotation, and now we don't have to rush Tommy Hanson.

So what does everyone think of Frank Wren now?
 
4/60.

Looks like the Mets were at 3/36.

Ken Rosenthal had the inside scoop then. Braves conditioned offer on him taking it quickly.

I guess he did.
 
Southcack77 said:
4/60.

Looks like the Mets were at 3/36.

Ken Rosenthal had the inside scoop then. Braves conditioned offer on him taking it quickly.

I guess he did.
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Yeah I don't get the criticism of the Lowe deal. The rotation was a travesty the year before and it killed the bullpen. Lowe was the surest thing available.
Instead of the "Contender's Premium", the Braves paid the Desperation Premium.

The Renteria, McLouth, and Uggla deals all looked great.
The BJ Upton and Chris Johnson deals looked bad from the start, and cost him enough credibility that he lost the power play against Cox over firing Fredi.
 
Jaw said:
Yeah I don't get the criticism of the Lowe deal. The rotation was a travesty the year before and it killed the bullpen. Lowe was the surest thing available.
Instead of the "Contender's Premium", the Braves paid the Desperation Premium.

The Renteria, McLouth, and Uggla deals all looked great.
The BJ Upton and Chris Johnson deals looked bad from the start, and cost him enough credibility that he lost the power play against Cox over firing Fredi.
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Which is the textbook definition of free-agency for the most part (regardless of where you're expected to be in the standings) IMO.

Was Lowe an "Ace"? Of course not. Was B. J./Melvin an All-Star? Nope.

I've definitely not been a big Wren guy for the most part, but do find it tough to complain too much about most of his moves at the MLB level. Those guys were the best available when we needed to fill holes on the big club and had absolutely no help on the horizon. The fact that he landed the best players on the board is a plus in my book - nobody else has a crystal ball either, and he picked up players that everyone agreed improved the team at that point in time.
 
clvclv said:
Which is the textbook definition of free-agency for the most part (regardless of where you're expected to be in the standings) IMO.

Was Lowe an "Ace"? Of course not. Was B. J./Melvin an All-Star? Nope.

I've definitely not been a big Wren guy for the most part, but do find it tough to complain too much about most of his moves at the MLB level. Those guys were the best available when we needed to fill holes on the big club and had absolutely no help on the horizon. The fact that he landed the best players on the board is a plus in my book - nobody else has a crystal ball either, and he picked up players that everyone agreed improved the team at that point in time.
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My problem with the Melvin deal is that there were other options out there that would have fit as well without the money/years commitment. Seeing the Nats got Span for Alex Meyer, I find it difficult to believe that the Braves couldn't have gotten Span for J.R. Graham. I don't think Wren could think outside the box that well. It was "When in doubt, stay on the narrow path," which usually meant multiple guys leaving us for guys on the higher shelves in the supermarket. That works if you are the Yankees, Red Sox, or some other big budget team. If you're a mid-market team, you simply have to be more judicious with your resources.
 
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