Being touted as one and actually being one are two different things. Besides that one year with the Rockies what has he done to be considered an ace?
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Being touted as one and actually being one are two different things. Besides that one year with the Rockies what has he done to be considered an ace?
I did not say he was an ace.
I said he was considered an ace at the time of the trade to compare the prospect haul the Rockies got relative to the packages received for other 'ace' pitchers.
By one person writing an article. I don't know of anyone that's considered Jiminez an ace. Someone with the potential to be an ace but he's never put it together outside of one year. Price is well established as one of the top 10 pitchers in baseball and has two years left. It's going to take a haul to get him.
You are (intentionally?) including Lester's 2012 season (4.82 ERA, highest in his career) in that (small) sample size. He also pitches at Fenway. In the AL East. From 2008 to 2012 he won 65 games, never had an ERA topping 3.50. Dominated in the postseason. People are deterred by the chicken/beer thing, I guess, but the guy has been money virtually his entire career.
FWIW Cain's career home/road splits are not huge ... and it's not like AT&T is Citi Field or Dodger Stadium.
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/30/rockies-ace-ubaldo-jimenez-traded-to-indians/ (Drew Silva)
http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/ne...30&content_id=22531086&vkey=news_col&c_id=col (Thomas Harding)
http://content.usatoday.com/communi...ez-trades-to-cleveland-indians/1#.UsicdmRDss0 (Bob Nightengale)
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/tom_verducci/07/29/ubaldo.jimenez/ (Tom Verducci)
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_18586331 (Troy Renck)
If you have a problem with their usage of 'ace' take it up with them.
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
Buerhle is not a traditional ace, he's more like say Tom Glavine .Just consistently puts up solid stats and eats innings. He never had the peak like Glavine did though of course, but just on an average basis.
That said, having an ace is great. But all tha tmatters in baseball is getting to the playoffs. Once you're in who knows what can happen. Sometimes the best team in baseball just keeps rolling. Sometimes a team that scrapes in goes on a tear.
And for what it's worth, I think the White Sox are the perfect example of why we don't need to go out and get an ace, and just having solid pitching up and down can make it happen.
Their staff with ERA+
Buerhle 144
Garcia 116
Garland 128
Contreras 125
Now compare that to our Big 3 from last year
Minor 120
Medlen 124
Julio 121
Beachy before going down had a 127 ERA+ as well. Sure BUerhle is way better than any of our guys but having 4 guys you can march out there and not be worried about is also a big strength. I'm not opposed to looking for an ace. I just won't pay ace asking prices. I think our rotation is fine, I'd like some more depth though. Maybe throw a flyer at Oswalt. He's not as bad as his ERA says he was the last 2 years (had homer issues in Texas and Small sample issues in colorado)
Someone who won't cost a lot of money, but could give us high upside. Cause someone will get hurt. It's the law of pitching, you cannot have a fully healthy rotation, miminum of 8 starters will be used and if our depth is
Julio
Minor
Medlen
Beachy
Floyd
Oswalt
Wood
Thne we get to the minor league fodder/Cameron Loes of the world I'd feel better.
Oswalt should come cheap, he signed a minor league deal with the Rockies, and then it was like 2.3 if he made the majors. So I imagine he could be had on a 1/1 with enough incentives to get it up to a 1/4 if he pitches all year.
I have concerns. You have to figure a fluke injury could happen (like Hudson's) and odds are we lose a pitcher to arm injury.
That said, having an ace is great. But all tha tmatters in baseball is getting to the playoffs. Once you're in who knows what can happen. Sometimes the best team in baseball just keeps rolling. Sometimes a team that scrapes in goes on a tear.
And for what it's worth, I think the White Sox are the perfect example of why we don't need to go out and get an ace, and just having solid pitching up and down can make it happen.
Their staff with ERA+
Buerhle 144
Garcia 116
Garland 128
Contreras 125
Now compare that to our Big 3 from last year
Minor 120
Medlen 124
Julio 121
Beachy before going down had a 127 ERA+ as well. Sure BUerhle is way better than any of our guys but having 4 guys you can march out there and not be worried about is also a big strength. I'm not opposed to looking for an ace. I just won't pay ace asking prices. I think our rotation is fine, I'd like some more depth though. Maybe throw a flyer at Oswalt. He's not as bad as his ERA says he was the last 2 years (had homer issues in Texas and Small sample issues in colorado)
Someone who won't cost a lot of money, but could give us high upside. Cause someone will get hurt. It's the law of pitching, you cannot have a fully healthy rotation, miminum of 8 starters will be used and if our depth is
Julio
Minor
Medlen
Beachy
Floyd
Oswalt
Wood
Thne we get to the minor league fodder/Cameron Loes of the world I'd feel better.
Oswalt should come cheap, he signed a minor league deal with the Rockies, and then it was like 2.3 if he made the majors. So I imagine he could be had on a 1/1 with enough incentives to get it up to a 1/4 if he pitches all year.
I have concerns. You have to figure a fluke injury could happen (like Hudson's) and odds are we lose a pitcher to arm injury.
Seems premature. Is Jiminez an ace now? Was he then? I just don't think labeling a guy with a good year or two an ace. If you feel or others feel differently then so be it.
3 years is not a small sample size. It's the standard sample for looking at what a player has done recently. What Lester did from 08-10 doesn't matter when talking about him right now. Lincecum was an ace but no longer is. Lester imo had the makings of an ace but the last 3 years are nothing special. It's what we've seen from Minor recently. If Lester is an ace then so is Minor.
And Cain has a 3.16 era at home and 3.57 on the road. It's not huge but it's significant. AT&T had the 4th best park factor for pitchers in 2013 at 0.869. The 3 better were Dodger Stadium, Citi Field, and Safeco. So yeah it's right there with them.
Heyward
<B>Voted Worst Poster <br>'13, '14, '15 (Co-Winner
Of course he's not, but he's arguably the best GM in baseball.
He's not gonna give Price away especially with what he got for Shields.
Heyward
<B>Voted Worst Poster <br>'13, '14, '15 (Co-Winner
Out of curiousity, what do you think it would cost for Price?
While I do think they'll be a good team with Price, I have to disagree. No question you hold Price IF you think you're a LEGITIMATE contender with him. The problem is that they're not likely to be a legitimate contender with him unless Longoria AND Myers are both MVP candidates.
Friedman understands he's not going to get the return he got for Shields. The question is whether Wren's willing to go Wood/Bethancourt/Sims/Peraza. No one else has even hinted that they're willing to offer that type of package. Seattle MAY offer Walker OR Zunino, but not both. With Kinsler in Detroit and Cano in Seattle, there's no chance you get Profar. The Yankees couldn't match that package, Boston's not playing, the Dodgers certainly don't need to play on that level. Name anyone else that needs an "Ace" that's willing to offer up that much talent (Braves-colored glasses or not).
I didn't think we had a chance for the longest time, but I'm beginning to think that if Wren would put that offer on the table he gets him. Tanaka offers the big-market teams their way out - they can get their "Ace" by writing a check.
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
If that's the package then my fervent hope is that Wren doesn't go there. I'm not opposed to trading really good prospects for a proven pitcher. I'd consider the above package for Chris Sale given his team friendly contract. The only circumstance I'd consider trading that group for Price would be if we got a negotiating window and were able to negotiate a contract with him that produces the kind of expected surplus value that Sale's contract does.
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
Just to elaborate a bit on the Sims/Wood/Peraza/Bethancourt for Price idea. I'd be interested if Price agreed to a contract covering his first five post-arbitration years at 15M/year. We'd need that sort of discount to make that a fair trade imo. Recent contracts given to guys like Greinke, Hamels, Felix Hernandez and Cain suggest it is highly unlikely that Price would agree to that kind of discount. But you never know.
The Chris Sale contract on the other hand is so ridiculously team friendly that I think a package of Sims/Wood/Peraza/Bethancourt would be pretty close to fair value. I'd try to avoid sending all three of Sims, Wood and Peraza. But that's not a crazy deal.
The Chris Sale contract on the other hand is so ridiculously team friendly that I think a package of Sims/Wood/Peraza/Bethancourt would be pretty close to fair value. I'd try to avoid sending all three of Sims, Wood and Peraza. But that's not a crazy deal.
Given the new TV money and likely new revenue streams coming with the new stadium, I'd be willing to offer a bit more than that. That said, I'd agree to an extent. I would be willing to offer all four guys IF I got the window and could get Price to agree to 7/$130 million - $15 million per for the two years remaining on his current deal with an extension at $20 million per.
When looking at that from the overall financial setup, that wouldn't even spend the TV money. The bigger reason I'd do it is that I feel that at least several of the other core pieces just might be willing to consider extensions once Liberty and management shows that kind of commitment to helping them get over the hump.
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
I doubt that signing Price to that sort of deal would increase the chances of holding on to our core pieces. I think it would be just the opposite. I understand your argument. But I think the simple fact is that Price would be making so much it would crowd out the funding available to the others.
It would be beyond foolish for Wren to trade away 2 cost controlled guys in Wood and Sims (who have a chance at becoming Aces themselves) for the right to pay Price 20% of the Braves payroll during his decline phase.
For the last time, teams with the resource constraints of the Atlanta Braves do not trade for Aces, they produce them. Every top notch pitching prospect like Waino, Hanson, Teheran, Delgado, Minor, Wood, Sims, Cabrera, etc are like holding a ticket in the "Ace Lottery". The odds of any one of them hitting the jackpot are small, but the more tickets you hold, the better your chances are. Teams like the Yanks, Phils and Dodgers with huge payrolls can afford to trade their tickets away for a Sabathia, Lee, Halladay or Grienke, while teams like the Rays, Cards and Braves need to cash in those tickets.
For the last time, teams with the resource constraints of the Atlanta Braves do not trade for Aces, they produce them. Every top notch pitching prospect like Waino, Hanson, Teheran, Delgado, Minor, Wood, Sims, Cabrera, etc are like holding a ticket in the "Ace Lottery". The odds of any one of them hitting the jackpot are small, but the more tickets you hold, the better your chances are. Teams like the Yanks, Phils and Dodgers with huge payrolls can afford to trade their tickets away for a Sabathia, Lee, Halladay or Grienke, while teams like the Rays, Cards and Braves need to cash in those tickets.
Sorry, but "for the last time", I don't believe in "for the last times" (unless you're willing to prove you're Frank Wren).
^^Exactly^^