Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
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Fredi Gonzalez Rant Thread.
- Thread starter The Tariff King
- Start date
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1985-Jays won 99 games and came within 1 game of the WS. Bobby was insane that year.
57Brave
Well-known member
Which begs the question -- how important are wins to a discussion of value?
We have downgraded wins for pitchers and RBI and BA for hitters to the point where the object of the game is blurred.
That is fine for message boards and discussions but I've seen a trickle down effect to youth baseball.
Where stats are given more credence than who wins and who loses.
A 17-18 year old baseball player is more concerned with his numbers for evaluation purposes and winning is secondary on their resumes.
That is still the object of the game -- right?
We have downgraded wins for pitchers and RBI and BA for hitters to the point where the object of the game is blurred.
That is fine for message boards and discussions but I've seen a trickle down effect to youth baseball.
Where stats are given more credence than who wins and who loses.
A 17-18 year old baseball player is more concerned with his numbers for evaluation purposes and winning is secondary on their resumes.
That is still the object of the game -- right?
bravesnumberone
Well-known member
Either way, there is something missing with this team. I don't think it's one particular person's fault, but the buck typically stops with the manager.
I think the generation factor is under played here. The young guys on this team minus Heyward seem to have the generation attitude that's common in society today. Bobby never had to deal with such immaturity on one team and there is no real player leader like a McCann or Chipper or Hudson or Smoltz.
If Fredi is a lot like Bobby in a certain aspect it's being too loyal to players. But it's also a double edged sword because as Smoltz said in 91 he started off 2-11 and I'm sure most of you would've trashed Bobby for continuing to run him out there in a pennant race. We all know Freddie has an attitude and arrogance to him. See:they got nothing and his temper tantrum being put on the DL to start last year. We know CJ is a mess, BJ can get feisty, Justin make look quiet but I'm sure he has a feisty attitude in the clubhouse. Kimbrel has a certain arrogance we already have seen.
Perhaps the young guys that don't appear to respect Fredi wouldn't have respected Bobby either way and Yunel was one of those examples. I think there's a generational variable that sometimes we assume ballplayers behave the same way as they did 10-20 years ago when we know that's not the case.
If Fredi is a lot like Bobby in a certain aspect it's being too loyal to players. But it's also a double edged sword because as Smoltz said in 91 he started off 2-11 and I'm sure most of you would've trashed Bobby for continuing to run him out there in a pennant race. We all know Freddie has an attitude and arrogance to him. See:they got nothing and his temper tantrum being put on the DL to start last year. We know CJ is a mess, BJ can get feisty, Justin make look quiet but I'm sure he has a feisty attitude in the clubhouse. Kimbrel has a certain arrogance we already have seen.
Perhaps the young guys that don't appear to respect Fredi wouldn't have respected Bobby either way and Yunel was one of those examples. I think there's a generational variable that sometimes we assume ballplayers behave the same way as they did 10-20 years ago when we know that's not the case.
Everything I've seen from Fredi screams traditional old school manager.
It's also hilarious to see people complain about him not getting ejected enough. I'd rather Fredi not get thrown out just to get the thrown out if it means Carlos Tosca or TP are managing.
It's also hilarious to see people complain about him not getting ejected enough. I'd rather Fredi not get thrown out just to get the thrown out if it means Carlos Tosca or TP are managing.
Dalyn
Fredi Gonzalez Supporter
No one really complains about that now. It sucks that he doesn't defend his players, but we've moved on to the more disastrous aspects of his performance.
bravesnumberone
Well-known member
Eh, I'm fine with Fredi not getting tossed if it's not a blatant string of missed calls like it has been in the past.
The team is still sorely missing a leader. They do exist out there. It's still a very young team, so maybe someone that's actually good will turn into it. But there isn't one now.
The team is still sorely missing a leader. They do exist out there. It's still a very young team, so maybe someone that's actually good will turn into it. But there isn't one now.
Dalyn
Fredi Gonzalez Supporter
Bobby managed four years ago. It isn't like he hasn't managed in a decade. He had to deal with little ****s along with roid rage. He also dealt with the same coaches, and they didn't go off on players in public or make lewd gestures or anything like that.
Heyward, Simmons, Gattis, and La Stella are all guys that are typical Braves guys. Quiet, go about and do your business. Justin sometimes. Freddie hasn't grown up yet 3 years in the majors now. He isn't ready to be a leader even though he has the biggest contract soon.
People love CJ's fire and when Fredi can't control him it's Fredi's fault.
There's a lot of wannabe leaders on this team and that has less to do with Fredi and more to do with nobody stepping up it should be Heyward.
No Eddie Perez, no Pendletons, no Brian Jordan type guys to keep the locker room straight. But I guess it's Fredi's fault.
People love CJ's fire and when Fredi can't control him it's Fredi's fault.
There's a lot of wannabe leaders on this team and that has less to do with Fredi and more to do with nobody stepping up it should be Heyward.
No Eddie Perez, no Pendletons, no Brian Jordan type guys to keep the locker room straight. But I guess it's Fredi's fault.
4 years is a lot. 2005 and 2006 were probably the youngest rosters he had since 1991 and we barely scraped by in 2005 and were mediocre in 2006.
Of course Bobby dealt with little ****s but the young guys of today aren't the same as youngsters from 10-15 years ago. They command respect before it's earned. Heyward was one of the least arrogant rookies I've ever seen. He looked like a veteran his rookie year and behaved like one. Show me a team as young and as immature as this one that Bobby had to deal with. Freddie has been somewhat of an immature 3 year veteran now.
The depths of yourr own bias against Fredi to prove a point are hilarious.
bravesnumberone
Well-known member
Heyward has to make it his team. Whenever Freddie grows up, he'll play a role in that too. Smoltz had CJ's temper, but he also was a terrific leader and had a good combination of the two that Chris Johnson doesn't have. Glavine was to me the quintessential Brave as far as going about his own business. I can see a little bit of that in La Stella and Gattis, but they're still new. Chipper was incredibly arrogant, but he backed it up, and I have no doubt got other guys off their asses. Hopefully Freddie becomes that. But then again, guys like Glavine, Smoltz and Chipper don't grow on trees.
Justin is hard to read. BJ is nothing but a whiny bitch, and maybe most of that is because he's played like **** for almost his entire time here, and it's part frustration.
Justin is hard to read. BJ is nothing but a whiny bitch, and maybe most of that is because he's played like **** for almost his entire time here, and it's part frustration.
No he's not Bobby but everyone knows Bobby taught him how to manage in the majors. He says it often and it was obvious he was hired because he was a Bobby disciple to continue the continuity.
In the 15 years I've been in this community I heard more complaints about Bobby's bullpen management than compliments. He's copied Bobby in the unwavering loyalty to struggling players category. His post game conferences are about as Bobbyesque as you are going to get.
bravesnumberone
Well-known member
When I say the buck stops with Fredi, it's because it does. It's just the nature of the business, fair or not. I don't know if he has all the players' respect or if any other manager could get it. I also don't know that him cracking their ass is a solution either because I only think certain managers are good at that. If you watch those documentaries that Fox Sports ran recently, Bobby had a lot more fire in the clubhouse than some may think. He yanked Andruw out of a game for dogging it, and Andruw from then on became one of the best defensive CF of all time.
Things may change for the better, but this particular dynamic right now is not working.
Things may change for the better, but this particular dynamic right now is not working.
Agreed strongly. People assume Laird is a leader just because he's old. Smoltz had competitive fire and more talent than CJ could ever dream of and he was great at what he did which elevated other guys around him.
Glavine was solid as a rock in terms of leadership. Seemed like the perfect quiet warrior to exemplify the braves. Agreed on Chipper that while he was cocky he could back it up.
This team has a lot of growing up to do and to point the finger at Fredi like Dalyn does every time is just silly. Fredi can't hold their hands.
Andruw was a rookie making chump change and he was living with Bobby so as Andruw says he feels like he let down his father.
Guys like Uptons, Freeman etc have already signed their paydays but none have the professionalism and heart as Heyward IMO.
Fredi could be a disciplinarian but expecting him to do it to guys that already making money is farfetched. When has Bobby specifically benched veterans?
Dalyn
Fredi Gonzalez Supporter
That's not fair (or true), and you know it isn't.
bravesnumberone
Well-known member
I can't recall many examples where Bobby would have had to do that. Like I said, the discipline thing isn't for everyone. Only some managers are good and effective at it. But again, something ain't working. I'd say we're just not that good, but it's a lot of the same guys that won 96 games last year.
You are without a doubt the biggest fire Fredi cheerleader on here. Consistently.
So Kimbrel gets an attitude. Lol Fredi has no control.
CJ throws a tantrum and Fredi benches him. Lol Fredi has no control.
Hale gets upset and shows bad body language. Fredi has no control.
I could go on. You are always first to the scene when there's a moment to be had to potentially blame Fredi.