GDT 8/8 BRAVES vs. BREWERS

[Enscheff]

Good comp. Paul was another successful major league pitcher who threw around 88 mph on his four seam fastball with an 81 mph change.

Again, a guy from 20 years ago that pitched to a career 4.72 FIP and a career WAR of 15 over 14 seasons (less than 1 WAR per season). PitchFX doesn't go back that far, but I'm willing to bet he wasn't throwing in the high 80s at age 25 in 1996.

If that's your definition of a "good pitcher" then you win the argument. Whalen can be a "good" pitcher if that is your criteria.

 

[Enscheff]

It's just a grumpy asshole being a grumpy asshole. It's so, so odd for someone to feel the need to talk down to every single person with a slightly differing view. We're not even allowed to feel slightly optimistic about Whalen. We have to announce that he sucks and won't make it, or feel the wrath of the mighty and all-knowing enscheff. it's really bizarre to me. normal people don't act that way to complete strangers on the internet. pre-pubescent 12 year olds on xbox do. you gonna bang our moms too, enscheff?

Then put me on ignore like I am going to do with you in my next 4 clicks. You won't have to read posts from an asshole know-it-all, and I won't have to read posts from an ignorant crybaby.

Problem solved on both ends.

 

[msstate7]

The point is that it's OK to rely on him to be a AAAA spot starter or long man in the BP. It is not OK to pencil him into the rotation and forego improving the pitching staff. This "see what we have" mentality is exactly why the Braves are giving significant playing time to Adonis Garcia. If this line of thinking continues the Braves will continue to be awful.

We do not need to "see what we have" in either Adonis or Whalen. Any semi-competent baseball baseball fan knows what the Braves have in those guys: a couple of AAAA players that can fill out the last spot on the bench or BP.

I state that opinion and no less than 6 posters quote me and jump down my throat with "opinions" based off "facts" about Glavine and Maddux. Of course I'm going to jump right back at them, except my "facts" are actual facts. So call me the asshole all you want, but go back and read the types of responses I get to any post I make and tell me how cordial folks around here are when you disagree with their ignorant homerism.

Who is Whalen starting in place of that has you upset?

 

[Preacher]

It is not OK to pencil him into the rotation and forego improving the pitching staff. This "see what we have" mentality is exactly why the Braves are giving significant playing time to Adonis Garcia. If this line of thinking continues the Braves will continue to be awful.

NOBODY is 'penciling him into the rotation, and deciding that we don't need to improve the pitching staff'. You're putting words into peoples mouths and then throwing fits about the reaction.

 

[msstate7]

NOBODY is 'penciling him into the rotation, and deciding that we don't need to improve the pitching staff'. You're putting words into peoples mouths and then throwing fits about the reaction.

His argument seems like the posters here have significant power when it comes to who gets playing time with the braves.

I see no problem letting Whalen start games down the stretch esp considering we have no one else to start. Now if coppy calls me for my long term opinion on Whalen, I'll put more thought into it

 

[zbhargrove]

Again, a guy from 20 years ago that pitched to a career 4.72 FIP and a career WAR of 15 over 14 seasons (less than 1 WAR per season). PitchFX doesn't go back that far, but I'm willing to bet he wasn't throwing in the high 80s at age 25 in 1996.

If that's your definition of a "good pitcher" then you win the argument. Whalen can be a "good" pitcher if that is your criteria.

Here's one problem. You keep crowing about age 25 pitchers when the dude is 22. He's not just an upper 80s pitcher. The pitch I think you're referring to is his very good sinker. His primary fastball can sit 92-93 with lots of movement. He may not throw that hard all the time because he doesn't need to yet. He's had two solid MLB starts... The first one he was fantastic after a nerve filled first inning. He has a career 2.45 ERA in 360 minor league innings. That will not likely translate into the majors all the way but to say he's basically a dime a dozen is flat out stupid for a 22 year old who has spent plenty of time in the upper minors at a young age. He has the potential to be a very good 4 or 5 in any rotation.

 

[bravesfanMatt]

NOBODY is 'penciling him into the rotation, and deciding that we don't need to improve the pitching staff'. You're putting words into peoples mouths and then throwing fits about the reaction.

Not sure we need to continue to react to these types comments.. Just enjoy watching him pitch until he is either traded or ineffective. maybe that is 10 years from now or two weeks from now. But there is only one fact that is really true.. he just pitched 2 good ball games where his team won both games... how he goes about it is not my concern.. just keep doing what he is doing... well maybe not keep winning, but keep pitching a good ball games..

 

[KB21]

Numbers that I concern myself with: The Braves are 24-24 in their last 48 games. Team ERA is 3.89 in those games. They have scored 198 runs and hit 45 home runs. They have scored 64 runs in their last 13 games and are 9-4 with a 3.25 ERA, 11 HR, and a .295 batting average.

 

[mfree80]

Numbers that I concern myself with: The Braves are 24-24 in their last 48 games. Team ERA is 3.89 in those games. They have scored 198 runs and hit 45 home runs. They have scored 64 runs in their last 13 games and are 9-4 with a 3.25 ERA, 11 HR, and a .295 batting average.

Are you saying the Braves are getting dangerously close to resembling a Major League Baseball Team?

Hmmm.

 

[KB21]

Nick Markakis last 65 games: .301/.351/.438, 6 HR, 36 RBI
Matt Kemp last 55 games: .289/.332/.502, 11 HR, 41 RBI

 

[KB21]

Are you saying the Braves are getting dangerously close to resembling a Major League Baseball Team?

Hmmm.

Ever since Snit took over, the mentality and attitude of this team has changed. There is a lot of positive energy flowing in that clubhouse now, and that was not the case before Snit.

 

[thewupk]

Ever since Snit took over, the mentality and attitude of this team has changed. There is a lot of positive energy flowing in that clubhouse now, and that was not the case before Snit.

What's the teams record since he took over

 

[KB21]

What's the teams record since he took over

33-42

 

[Millwood1Hitter]

Paul Byrd is a piece of garbage. His contract was the reason why JS was forced to ship Millwood out of town.

 

[Enscheff]

Here's one problem. You keep crowing about age 25 pitchers when the dude is 22. He's not just an upper 80s pitcher. The pitch I think you're referring to is his very good sinker. His primary fastball can sit 92-93 with lots of movement. He may not throw that hard all the time because he doesn't need to yet. He's had two solid MLB starts... The first one he was fantastic after a nerve filled first inning. He has a career 2.45 ERA in 360 minor league innings. That will not likely translate into the majors all the way but to say he's basically a dime a dozen is flat out stupid for a 22 year old who has spent plenty of time in the upper minors at a young age. He has the potential to be a very good 4 or 5 in any rotation.

That's simply not true:

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.aspx?playerid=14165&position=P

His max FA or SI velocity has been 90.8, his average velocity 88.8 and 88.6. His FA has been 86.7-90.7 MPH. He hasn't thrown a single MLB pitch over 91 MPH, much less 92-93. Do you think he has been less pumped up or saving himself more than usual at the MLB level? Do you think he was throwing harder in the minors than in Atlanta?

His sinker has an average horizontal movement of -8.2 inches, an average vertical movement of 1.2 inches, and an average velocity of 88.6 MPH.

According to this: http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/the-change-average-movement-for-each-pitch-type/

the average MLB sinker has movements of -8.4 and 4.6 with an average velocity of 90.9 MPH.

Rob Whalen's sinker moves several inches less and is more than 2 MPH slower than the average MLB sinker. There is nothing to suggest it is a "very good sinker". It is, quite literally, a below average sinker in every measurable way.

I keep bringing up 25 year olds because the discussion has been over a 3 year window, when he will be 25. Pitcher velocity almost always decreases with age, so by age 25 he will most likely be throwing even slower than 88.6 MPH.

 

[mfree80]

Paul Byrd is a piece of garbage. His contract was the reason why JS was forced to ship Millwood out of town.

Really? I remember it being because Maddux accepted arbitration unexpectedly. Don't remember Byrd having anything to do with it.

 

[TheBravos]

That's simply not true:

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.aspx?playerid=14165&position=P

His max FA or SI velocity has been 90.8, his average velocity 88.8 and 88.6. His FA has been 86.7-90.7 MPH. He hasn't thrown a single MLB pitch over 91 MPH, much less 92-93. Do you think he has been less pumped up or saving himself more than usual at the MLB level? Do you think he was throwing harder in the minors than in Atlanta?

His sinker has an average horizontal movement of -8.2 inches, an average vertical movement of 1.2 inches, and an average velocity of 88.6 MPH.

According to this: http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/the-change-average-movement-for-each-pitch-type/

the average MLB sinker has movements of -8.4 and 4.6 with an average velocity of 90.9 MPH.

Rob Whalen's sinker moves several inches less and is more than 2 MPH slower than the average MLB sinker. There is nothing to suggest it is a "very good sinker". It is, quite literally, a below average sinker in every measurable way.

I keep bringing up 25 year olds because the discussion has been over a 3 year window, when he will be 25. Pitcher velocity almost always decreases with age, so by age 25 he will most likely be throwing even slower than 88.6 MPH.

Until he stops striking people out and winning games...these stats are pretty useless. It's why teams have HUGE payrolls sometimes, but that doesn't always mean they are winners. That kid with the Brewers last night didn't look to have anything impressive, but he's been winning and has a low ERA. I'm all for electric arm guys and they have an advantage. Sometimes though...a pitcher with average stuff, but know how and a bulldog mentality can win you a bunch of games.

 

[zbhargrove]

That's simply not true:

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.aspx?playerid=14165&position=P

His max FA or SI velocity has been 90.8, his average velocity 88.8 and 88.6. His FA has been 86.7-90.7 MPH. He hasn't thrown a single MLB pitch over 91 MPH, much less 92-93. Do you think he has been less pumped up or saving himself more than usual at the MLB level? Do you think he was throwing harder in the minors than in Atlanta?

His sinker has an average horizontal movement of -8.2 inches, an average vertical movement of 1.2 inches, and an average velocity of 88.6 MPH.

According to this: http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/the-change-average-movement-for-each-pitch-type/

the average MLB sinker has movements of -8.4 and 4.6 with an average velocity of 90.9 MPH.

Rob Whalen's sinker moves several inches less and is more than 2 MPH slower than the average MLB sinker. There is nothing to suggest it is a "very good sinker". It is, quite literally, a below average sinker in every measurable way.

I keep bringing up 25 year olds because the discussion has been over a 3 year window, when he will be 25. Pitcher velocity almost always decreases with age, so by age 25 he will most likely be throwing even slower than 88.6 MPH.

So after almost a whole season is in the books, it's hard to believe a 22 year old who has had a limited amount of innings until now may not have some down velocity simply due to some fatigue?? Here was a scouting report with quotes from Sherman when the original trade was made. Whalen was considered the more heralded of him and Gant at the time. Sherman seemed to think he hit 92-93 in the minors and he would have known.

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2530864-rob-whalen-john-gant-to-braves-trade-details-scouting-report-reaction

 

[Preacher]

Really? I remember it being because Maddux accepted arbitration unexpectedly. Don't remember Byrd having anything to do with it.

JS botched that whole situation, he ended up acquiring one too many pitchers and then whined about 'financial constraints' forcing him to unload Millwood.

 

[Tapate50]

So after almost a whole season is in the books, it's hard to believe a 22 year old who has had a limited amount of innings until now may not have some down velocity simply due to some fatigue?? Here was a scouting report with quotes from Sherman when the original trade was made. Whalen was considered the more heralded of him and Gant at the time. Sherman seemed to think he hit 92-93 in the minors and he would have known.

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2530864-rob-whalen-john-gant-to-braves-trade-details-scouting-report-reaction

It was brought up last night that he has blown through his previous marks in IP and should be limited at some point in the future if he sticks.