Grilli Close To Being Moved???

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gilesfan said:
The comparison is because there aren't many 5-6 150 pound players that become really good major leaguers so you point to the best ones (altuve, Ped) and hope Albies can get to that level.
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And there aren't many guys that size who are ever ranked as highly as Albies is now. Pedroia and Altuve both never even came close.

So the fact that so many people do rate Albies that highly tells me they believe he will become one of the few guys that size who do make it.

But saying, 'Few guys that size ever get to that level' as a support for the argument that Albies isn't close to the prospect that Freeman was doesn't hold water.
 
gilesfan said:
But, he was OPS'ing .880 in the minors at a young age that made him a top 20ish prospect. And there was Heyward. And there was Teheran. And there were several other really good prospects.
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We're not talking about them. I've already stated my opinion on them and mostly agreed with you.

My issue is with clv and auyushu who seem to believe Albies will never get to the level Freeman is, or that Albies wasn't close to Freeman as a prospect. It's just not true.
 
smootness said:
We're not talking about them. I've already stated my opinion on them and mostly agreed with you.

My issue is with clv and auyushu who seem to believe Albies will never get to the level Freeman is, or that Albies wasn't close to Freeman as a prospect. It's just not true.
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As I said, we are talking about comparing the system today as it was in the 2009/2010 general time period. Its very possible Albies becomes a top prospect, but also possible he drops off the list. But, right now, he's not the level of prospect that Freeman was when Freeman/Heyward and company came through the system. This started when thethe said the system is better than its been in a decade.
 
smootness said:
I don't know that Albies is likely to get there, but Freeman wasn't likely to OPS at .880+ as a prospect, either. Several, including Law, didn't think he'd ever get there. So as prospects, they're pretty darn similar. Insinuating that Freeman was way ahead of Albies as a prospect is weird, considering we can actually see where various people ranked them, and they're similar.
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Freeman was pretty likely to be a high .800s guy as a prospect, heck he was posting close to that as a 19 year old in A Ball, and had .900ish OPS in the minors as well. It was his other tools that kept him back. Law was one of the few that discounted his bat.

And I think Albies will hit 5 WAR once or twice in his career, but when comparing players I'm looking at consistency and probable expectations. I fully expect Freeman to hit 5+ WAR at least 4-5 more times by the time he hits 32-33 years old. I'd be extremely surprised if Albies did it more than twice simply due to the fact he'd have to hit for such a high average in order to do so. And you can't compare him to Simba defensively realistically, he's in best of all time territory, which really inflates his WAR (particularly on BR. I'm not as big a fan of them compared to FG, they really overvalue defensive WAR IMO).

Unless you think Albies is going to be Tony Gwynn and have a career BA in the .320+ range he's unlikely to hit 5 WAR more than a couple times. I mean, Pedroia has a career .300/.366/.445 slash line (along with being a superb defender for most of his career) and he's only done it 3 times. And I don't think Albies can touch Pedroia's power level even in a best case, and his OBP will likely be around the same or likely a little less.
 
gilesfan said:
As I said, we are talking about comparing the system today as it was in the 2009/2010 general time period. Its very possible Albies becomes a top prospect, but also possible he drops off the list. But, right now, he's not the level of prospect that Freeman was when Freeman/Heyward and company came through the system. This started when thethe said the system is better than its been in a decade.
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Yes, he is. Albies is much better as a prospect than Freeman was at 18, according to everyone. His status right now is only slight below Freeman's at 20.

Yes, this was originally about the whole system. Again, I've already stated my opinion on that. We're specifically talking about Albies vs. Freeman now, so I don't know why you brought up Heyward and Teheran again.

Also, if we're going to use Freeman's OPS at Rome at 18-19 as a good reason to believe he would do that in the majors, then I guess we can expect Albies to OPS at easily above .800 in the majors as well...which, given his speed and defense, would make him as a good a player in the majors as Freeman is now.
 
auyushu said:
Freeman was pretty likely to be a high .800s guy as a prospect, heck he was posting close to that as a 19 year old in A Ball, and had .900ish OPS in the minors as well. It was his other tools that kept him back. Law was one of the few that discounted his bat.

And I think Albies will hit 5 WAR once or twice in his career, but when comparing players I'm looking at consistency and probable expectations. I fully expect Freeman to hit 5+ WAR at least 4-5 more times by the time he hits 32-33 years old. I'd be extremely surprised if Albies did it more than twice simply due to the fact he'd have to hit for such a high average in order to do so. And you can't compare him to Simba defensively realistically, he's in best of all time territory, which really inflates his WAR (particularly on BR. I'm not as big a fan of them compared to FG, they really overvalue defensive WAR IMO).

Unless you think Albies is going to be Tony Gwynn and have a career BA in the .320+ range he's unlikely to hit 5 WAR more than a couple times. I mean, Pedroia has a career .300/.366/.445 slash line (along with being a superb defender for most of his career) and he's only done it 3 times. And I don't think Albies can touch Pedroia's power level even in a best case, and his OBP will likely be around the same or likely a little less.
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Pedroia had had a much better career at 25 than Freeman has had so far, but you think Freeman will have a far better remainder of his career than Pedroia has had?

And no, Freeman never had an OPS in the high .900's as a prospect...he never even hit .900.

And again, if Freeman posting a high-.800's OPS at 18-19 in A ball is such a clear sign he could do that in the majors, then Albies OPS'ing at easily over .800 at 18 in A ball should make it obvious he can definitely do that in the majors consistently.
 
jpx7 said:
You mean this?

BSF-with-highlight.gif


(So named, by the way, because Bristol, Connecticut, is the headquarters of ESPN.)
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That would be the one. :FrediPuzzled:
 
smootness said:
Yes, he is. Albies is much better as a prospect than Freeman was at 18, according to everyone. His status right now is only slight below Freeman's at 20.

Yes, this was originally about the whole system. Again, I've already stated my opinion on that. We're specifically talking about Albies vs. Freeman now, so I don't know why you brought up Heyward and Teheran again.

Also, if we're going to use Freeman's OPS at Rome at 18-19 as a good reason to believe he would do that in the majors, then I guess we can expect Albies to OPS at easily above .800 in the majors as well...which, given his speed and defense, would make him as a good a player in the majors as Freeman is now.
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If you believe that he can hit .330 in the majors.
 
smootness said:
Pedroia had had a much better career at 25 than Freeman has had so far, but you think Freeman will have a far better remainder of his career than Pedroia has had?

And no, Freeman never had an OPS in the high .900's as a prospect...he never even hit .900.

And again, if Freeman posting a high-.800's OPS at 18-19 in A ball is such a clear sign he could do that in the majors, then Albies OPS'ing at easily over .800 at 18 in A ball should make it obvious he can definitely do that in the majors consistently.
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Yeah, that was a typo I didn't edit in time, his highest was .899 in A, with AAA being right there too.

So you think Freeman is unlikely to have 4-5 seasons in the next 7-8 years where he remains healthy, hit 22-25 HRs, and has an OPS around .890ish? Because that's a 5 WAR season with his normal defense.

On the flip side do you think Albies is going to consistently hit .330 in the majors like he is in the minors right now, because as the stats I've been showing you show he'd have to hit at that level to get .800 OPS.
 
I do think it's unlikely, yes. Not impossible, but I think the chances he doesn't have 4-5 seasons of 5+ WAR are definitely better than the chances that he does.

And my point about Albies OPS'ing at over .800 was mostly a joke. If we're going to say it was likely that Freeman became this because he did the same thing in A ball, I just don't know why we're also suggesting Albies will put up worse numbers.

I don't think it's likely that Albies' career average is .330, no. I think he can be a guy who consistently hits over .300, though, and jumps up to that level several times. And I think he can improve his walk rate and power as well. He has a really good swing; he is no slap hitter. Once he adds 15-20 pounds, I think he can hit 5-10 HR even at the major league level and post an ISO of .100-.150. I don't think seasons of .310/.380/.420 or better are at all out of the question for Albies.
 
smootness said:
Yes, he is. Albies is much better as a prospect than Freeman was at 18, according to everyone. His status right now is only slight below Freeman's at 20.
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Also, comparing year to year player rankings can be misleading based on the quality of talent in previous drafts. The 2007 draft was absolutely stacked, with the previous years and 2008 being pretty good too. Freeman was being compared to Heyward, Strasburg, Posey, Mike Stanton, Jesus Montero, Pedro Alvarez, Dustin Smoak, Carlos Santana, Madison Bumgardner and others with extremely high scouting grades, he wasn't getting into the top 10 no matter what he did. Whereas with Albies right now there is Seager, Urias, Giolito, Schwarber, Glasnow and a bunch of very good but not spectacular players, he can very easily move into the top 10.
 
smootness said:
I don't think it's likely that Albies' career average is .330, no. I think he can be a guy who consistently hits over .300, though, and jumps up to that level several times. And I think he can improve his walk rate and power as well. He has a really good swing; he is no slap hitter. Once he adds 15-20 pounds, I think he can hit 5-10 HR even at the major league level and post an ISO of .100-.150. I don't think seasons of .310/.380/.420 or better are at all out of the question for Albies.
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Then we don't disagree about Albies at all. You just vastly underestimate Freeman IMO. Because I expect Albies to be a guy that hits .300+ and averages a .770ish OPS, occasionally popping up to .800ish in high average years.
 
Not against trading him but trading him for a marginal prospect is dumb.

Given his team friendly contract, hopefully they can get a solid player for him.

Guerrero is signed for 2 more years, at an affordable rate but not sure what they could add to get him.
 
gilesfan said:
That type of thinking also gets a lot of teams in trouble (see Tex trade). This team has virtually no shot at the playoffs. Any potential move should have that in mind.
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So they should give Grilli away for a bag of Doritos?
 
jpx7 said:
But we're talking about competition in the context of the 2015 season.
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Well i mean, they arent technically out of it but after the ASB, they probably will be but stranger things have happened.
 
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