I think the ideological leaninga of the Dayton shooter are well known.
Gun Violence
- Thread starter 57Brave
- Start date
I think the ideological leaninga of the Dayton shooter are well known.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
That’s fine, and not at all what I’m saying. My point is that the El Paso shooting was an explicit expression of the shooter’s ideology—with the testimony of his own words and statements to police—whereas I’m unaware of any such analog in the Dayton case. Certainly people of any given subdivision of society can be rotten people capable of horrible things.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
I quite agree with you about amending the constitution being the best ultimate remedy, there’s just a particular bee in my bonnet about the way the popular conversation tends to ignore the history of jurisprudence in this area, and tends to treat the current conservative jurisprudence as something other than activist, revisionist, and radical. Which, regardless of whether or not you agree with it, it undoubtedly is. The current absolutist gun-rights position is ascendant, but it’s not particularly well-grounded historically. In underscoring the “shall not be infringed” clause, you’re ignoring the rest of the text, which is concerned with the necessity of a “well-regulated militia.” That was a pressing concern in the late 18th century, and was argued over interminably, and that’s what most of the framers’ arguments and early 2nd Amendment jurisprudence was about. Whether or not state and local militias were a good idea, how they were to be funded, how they were to be regulated, etc. “Bearing arms” was specifically understood within a military context—e.g. a soldier or militiaman with a gun was “bearing arms” but a hunter shooting deer or a farmer potting varmints wasn’t. It’s a real stretch to shoehorn today’s understanding of the “individual right” into that framework, but that’s what has happened. Bravo to the gun folks for winning a political and cultural battle, but let’s not pretend that isn’t what it is.
Since you all forgot what happened during Obama’s presidency let me remind you;
Shooting events during Obama’s presidency.
Feb. 2, 2008 —Kirkwood, Missouri
Charles Lee Thornton, 52, entered a public city council meeting and shot and killed five people with two handguns before he was shot and killed by police.
Feb. 14, 2008 —Dekalb, Ilinois
Steven Kazmierczak, 27, shot and killed five people on the campus of Northern Illinois University with several semiautomatic weapons before killing himself.
June 25, 2008 —Henderson, Kentucky
Wesley Neal Higdon, 25, killed five people at Atlantis Plastics Factory with a semiautomatic weapon before taking his own life.
April 3, 2009 —Binghamton, New York
Jiverly Antares Wong, a 41-year-old naturalized American citizen from Vietnam, shot and killed 14 people at the American Civic Association with two weapons before killing himself.
August 3, 2010 — Manchester, Connecticut
Omar Thorton, 34, entered a warehouse owned by his former employer, Hartford Distributors, and shot and killed eight people with two semiautomatic weapons before committing suicide.
Sept. 6, 2011 —Carson City, Nevada
Eduardo Sencion, 32, opened fire with a semiautomatic rifle in an IHOP restaurant, killing four people and himself.
July 20, 2012 —Aurora, Colorado
James Holmes, 25, shot and killed 12 people in a movie theater during the premiere of "The Dark Knight Rises" using several weapons, including a semiautomatic rifle.
Aug. 5, 2012 —Oak Creek, Wisconsin
Wade Michael Page, 40, killed four people with a semiautomatic weapon inside a Sikh temple before turning the gun on himself.
Dec. 14, 2012 —Newtown, Connecticut
Adam Lanza, 20, shot and killed his mother and 26 people inside Sandy Hook Elementary School before turning the gun on himself.
March 13, 2013 —Herkimer, New York
Kurt Meyers, 64, killed four people at a car wash and barbershop with a shotgun before he was shot and killed by police.
Sept. 16, 2013 —Washington, D.C.
Aaron Alexis, 34, shot and killed 12 people inside the Washington Navy Yard with a 12-gauge shotgun before he was shot and killed by police.
June 7, 2013 —Santa Monica, California
John Zawahri, 23, opened fire in a home and later on the campus of Santa Monica College, killing five people with a semiautomatic rifle. He was killed during a shootout with police.
July 26, 2013 —Hialeah, Florida
Pedro Alberto Vargas, 42, shot and killed six people with a semiautomatic weapon in his apartment complex before setting fire to his own apartment. He was shot and killed by a SWAT team.
September 14, 2014— Bell, Florida
Don C. Spirit, 51, shot and killed his granddaughter and six grandchildren before turning the gun on himself.
May 17, 2015— Waco, Texas
Rival motorcycle gangs kill nine at a restaurant in Waco, Texas. There were over 170 arrests made after the incident.
June 17, 2015 — Charleston, S.C.
Dylann Roof, 21, walks into a historic black church in Charleston, South Carolina and kills nine people.
Oct. 1, 2015—Roseburg, OR.
Christopher Harper-Mercer enters Umpqua Community College in southwest Oregon opens fire and kills nine, wounding seven others before police shot him to death.
November 27, 2015— Colorado Springs, Colorado
Robert Lewis Dear storms in a Planned Parenthood health clinic in Colorado Springs, Colorado and kills three people and wounding nine.
December 2, 2015— San Bernardino, California
A man and a woman walk into a holiday party both armed with assault weapons and kill 14 people and wounding 17 others.
June 12, 2016 — Orlando, Florida
Omar Mir SeddiqueMateen, 29, killed 49 people and injured 53 at Pulse – a popular gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida. President Barack Obama described the horrific event as an "act of terror and hate”
Shooting events during Obama’s presidency.
Feb. 2, 2008 —Kirkwood, Missouri
Charles Lee Thornton, 52, entered a public city council meeting and shot and killed five people with two handguns before he was shot and killed by police.
Feb. 14, 2008 —Dekalb, Ilinois
Steven Kazmierczak, 27, shot and killed five people on the campus of Northern Illinois University with several semiautomatic weapons before killing himself.
June 25, 2008 —Henderson, Kentucky
Wesley Neal Higdon, 25, killed five people at Atlantis Plastics Factory with a semiautomatic weapon before taking his own life.
April 3, 2009 —Binghamton, New York
Jiverly Antares Wong, a 41-year-old naturalized American citizen from Vietnam, shot and killed 14 people at the American Civic Association with two weapons before killing himself.
August 3, 2010 — Manchester, Connecticut
Omar Thorton, 34, entered a warehouse owned by his former employer, Hartford Distributors, and shot and killed eight people with two semiautomatic weapons before committing suicide.
Sept. 6, 2011 —Carson City, Nevada
Eduardo Sencion, 32, opened fire with a semiautomatic rifle in an IHOP restaurant, killing four people and himself.
July 20, 2012 —Aurora, Colorado
James Holmes, 25, shot and killed 12 people in a movie theater during the premiere of "The Dark Knight Rises" using several weapons, including a semiautomatic rifle.
Aug. 5, 2012 —Oak Creek, Wisconsin
Wade Michael Page, 40, killed four people with a semiautomatic weapon inside a Sikh temple before turning the gun on himself.
Dec. 14, 2012 —Newtown, Connecticut
Adam Lanza, 20, shot and killed his mother and 26 people inside Sandy Hook Elementary School before turning the gun on himself.
March 13, 2013 —Herkimer, New York
Kurt Meyers, 64, killed four people at a car wash and barbershop with a shotgun before he was shot and killed by police.
Sept. 16, 2013 —Washington, D.C.
Aaron Alexis, 34, shot and killed 12 people inside the Washington Navy Yard with a 12-gauge shotgun before he was shot and killed by police.
June 7, 2013 —Santa Monica, California
John Zawahri, 23, opened fire in a home and later on the campus of Santa Monica College, killing five people with a semiautomatic rifle. He was killed during a shootout with police.
July 26, 2013 —Hialeah, Florida
Pedro Alberto Vargas, 42, shot and killed six people with a semiautomatic weapon in his apartment complex before setting fire to his own apartment. He was shot and killed by a SWAT team.
September 14, 2014— Bell, Florida
Don C. Spirit, 51, shot and killed his granddaughter and six grandchildren before turning the gun on himself.
May 17, 2015— Waco, Texas
Rival motorcycle gangs kill nine at a restaurant in Waco, Texas. There were over 170 arrests made after the incident.
June 17, 2015 — Charleston, S.C.
Dylann Roof, 21, walks into a historic black church in Charleston, South Carolina and kills nine people.
Oct. 1, 2015—Roseburg, OR.
Christopher Harper-Mercer enters Umpqua Community College in southwest Oregon opens fire and kills nine, wounding seven others before police shot him to death.
November 27, 2015— Colorado Springs, Colorado
Robert Lewis Dear storms in a Planned Parenthood health clinic in Colorado Springs, Colorado and kills three people and wounding nine.
December 2, 2015— San Bernardino, California
A man and a woman walk into a holiday party both armed with assault weapons and kill 14 people and wounding 17 others.
June 12, 2016 — Orlando, Florida
Omar Mir SeddiqueMateen, 29, killed 49 people and injured 53 at Pulse – a popular gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida. President Barack Obama described the horrific event as an "act of terror and hate”
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
This feels kinda desperate.
So I guess we’ll need to first establish what the shooting had to do with the shooter’s ideology, right? Because that’s quite apparent in the El Paso case. There are no auspices that need to be interpreted. It’s an act explicitly done in service to an ideology, one which actually uses similar if not identical language to the more nativist contingent of what’s now pretty mainstream Republican rhetoric. The ideological link is obvious, because there are no dots to connect...it’s just there for anyone to read, in his own words. So what’s the connection with the horrific act and the ideology in the other case? If you’re going to try to make this point, you should at least be able to find a line to draw between the ideology and the act, right?
cajunrevenge
Well-known member
May 17, 2015— Waco, Texas
Rival motorcycle gangs kill nine at a restaurant in Waco, Texas. There were over 170 arrests made after the incident.
Do mass shootings by police count now? Cops fired randomly into a crowd after lying about being fired on then mass arrested everyone in sight and looted and plundered their stuff. Those 170 arrested were given million dollar bails but eventually dropped all charges except 1 who went to trial and won. This case is a giant rabbit hole of corruption.
Rival motorcycle gangs kill nine at a restaurant in Waco, Texas. There were over 170 arrests made after the incident.
Do mass shootings by police count now? Cops fired randomly into a crowd after lying about being fired on then mass arrested everyone in sight and looted and plundered their stuff. Those 170 arrested were given million dollar bails but eventually dropped all charges except 1 who went to trial and won. This case is a giant rabbit hole of corruption.
Dayton shooter killed 9 in 30 seconds before being killed by cops.
wE sHOuLd bAn KniVeS tOo aM i rItE?!
How many people would the killer have killed wielding a knife in 30 seconds. Definitely not 9.
wE sHOuLd bAn KniVeS tOo aM i rItE?!
How many people would the killer have killed wielding a knife in 30 seconds. Definitely not 9.
Im not sure what point youre trying to make. Each shooter held ideological positions espoused my prominent membes of each political party. Each violently attacked innocents to stress how important those beliefs are to themselves.
Yourr trying to then make the El Paso shooter worse? Just feels like more mental gymnastics from you Julio. Thats fine....you do you but its just more of the same. Instead of diminishing clear antisemitism, you now have moved onto murder.
striker42
Well-known member
Dehumanizing those that disagree with you is a classic tactic of oppression.
Jaw
It's OVER 5,000!
I hate using left and right to describe court ideology because it's generally not accurate and always more nuanced, but let me use it here for simplicity.
Imagine we have some new issue come to the Supreme Court today, with no precedent, and the Roberts court makes an extremely right-leaning ruling on it.
Twenty years from now a less conservative court makes a more central ruling to overturn that precedent.
Who were the activists?
Jaw
It's OVER 5,000!
I used to manage grocery stores, so I am a bad man with a box cutter. It's probably safer for everyone if I stick to firearms.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
Criminy, dude. Neither one is worse than the other. I’m pointing out something that is or should be obvious, but that you (and sturg) are, for your own reasons, misrepresenting.
57Brave
Well-known member
“There is more hooey spread about the Second Amendment. It says quite clearly that guns are for those who form part of a well-regulated militia, i.e., the armed forces including the National Guard. The reasons for keeping them away from everyone else get clearer by the day.
The comparison most often used is that of the automobile, another lethal object that is regularly used to wreak great carnage. Obviously, this society is full of people who haven’t got enough common sense to use an automobile properly. But we haven’t outlawed cars yet. We do, however, license them and their owners, restrict their use to presumably sane and sober adults and keep track of who sells them to whom. At a minimum, we should do the same with guns.
In truth, there is no rational argument for guns in this society. This is no longer a frontier nation in which people hunt their own food. It is a crowded, overwhelmingly urban country in which letting people have access to guns is a continuing disaster. Those who want guns—whether for target shooting, hunting or potting rattlesnakes (get a hoe)—should be subject to the same restrictions placed on gun owners in England—a nation in which liberty has survived nicely without an armed populace.
The argument that “guns don’t kill people” is patent nonsense. Anyone who has ever worked in a cop shop knows how many family arguments end in murder because there was a gun in the house. Did the gun kill someone? No. But if there had been no gun, no one would have died. At least not without a good footrace first. Guns do kill. Unlike cars, that is all they do.
For years, I used to enjoy taunting my gun-nut friends about their psycho-sexual hang-ups—always in a spirit of good cheer, you understand. But letting the noisy minority in the National Rifle Association force us to allow this carnage to continue is just plain insane.”
- Molly Ivins 1993
The comparison most often used is that of the automobile, another lethal object that is regularly used to wreak great carnage. Obviously, this society is full of people who haven’t got enough common sense to use an automobile properly. But we haven’t outlawed cars yet. We do, however, license them and their owners, restrict their use to presumably sane and sober adults and keep track of who sells them to whom. At a minimum, we should do the same with guns.
In truth, there is no rational argument for guns in this society. This is no longer a frontier nation in which people hunt their own food. It is a crowded, overwhelmingly urban country in which letting people have access to guns is a continuing disaster. Those who want guns—whether for target shooting, hunting or potting rattlesnakes (get a hoe)—should be subject to the same restrictions placed on gun owners in England—a nation in which liberty has survived nicely without an armed populace.
The argument that “guns don’t kill people” is patent nonsense. Anyone who has ever worked in a cop shop knows how many family arguments end in murder because there was a gun in the house. Did the gun kill someone? No. But if there had been no gun, no one would have died. At least not without a good footrace first. Guns do kill. Unlike cars, that is all they do.
For years, I used to enjoy taunting my gun-nut friends about their psycho-sexual hang-ups—always in a spirit of good cheer, you understand. But letting the noisy minority in the National Rifle Association force us to allow this carnage to continue is just plain insane.”
- Molly Ivins 1993
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
During his senior year of high school, Connor Betts seemed to always have caffeine pills in one hand and an energy drink in another. He was unable to sleep, he told his then-girlfriend Lyndsi Doll, because of dark, animal-like shadows that tormented him at night.
Seven years after they dated, Doll recalls Betts as a serious and reserved kid who wrestled with hallucinations and menacing voices in his head.
While they were in high school, Betts told Doll that he had suffered from psychosis since he was young and feared developing schizophrenia.
“He would cry to me sometimes,” she said, “saying how he’s afraid of himself and afraid he was going to hurt someone one day. It’s haunting now.”
Doll said she liked Betts most when he was with his sister, describing them as close friends. She remembers him speaking highly of Megan, of her intellect and kindness. They would gently tease each other and often erupt in fits of laughter when together.
“They would play off of one another,” she said. “She was the bright, happy soul and he was the dark, more reserved one.”
But Doll said she always knew that something was “off” about Betts. When she enrolled at Bellbrook High School her sophomore year, she heard stories about a “hit list” that Betts had compiled with names of people he wanted to kill. As she got to know him, her friends grew wary and warned her of Betts’s tumultuous past relationships. They told her he had pushed one ex-girlfriend into a roaring river and had screamed at another while pinning her against a wall.
“He was funny, he was charismatic in his own way,” she said. “In school at least, it was always just Connor being Connor.”
They connected over their shared mental health struggles — she suffered from anxiety and depression — often turning to each other for support.
But as their relationship progressed, Doll became increasingly concerned that Betts was far from normal and desperately in need of professional help. He talked a lot about the “dark, evil things” he heard in his head. He would sometimes check out midway through the conservation, when it seemed like his mind would drift elsewhere.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...0a895c-b79e-11e9-b3b4-2bb69e8c4e39_story.html
Seven years after they dated, Doll recalls Betts as a serious and reserved kid who wrestled with hallucinations and menacing voices in his head.
While they were in high school, Betts told Doll that he had suffered from psychosis since he was young and feared developing schizophrenia.
“He would cry to me sometimes,” she said, “saying how he’s afraid of himself and afraid he was going to hurt someone one day. It’s haunting now.”
Doll said she liked Betts most when he was with his sister, describing them as close friends. She remembers him speaking highly of Megan, of her intellect and kindness. They would gently tease each other and often erupt in fits of laughter when together.
“They would play off of one another,” she said. “She was the bright, happy soul and he was the dark, more reserved one.”
But Doll said she always knew that something was “off” about Betts. When she enrolled at Bellbrook High School her sophomore year, she heard stories about a “hit list” that Betts had compiled with names of people he wanted to kill. As she got to know him, her friends grew wary and warned her of Betts’s tumultuous past relationships. They told her he had pushed one ex-girlfriend into a roaring river and had screamed at another while pinning her against a wall.
“He was funny, he was charismatic in his own way,” she said. “In school at least, it was always just Connor being Connor.”
They connected over their shared mental health struggles — she suffered from anxiety and depression — often turning to each other for support.
But as their relationship progressed, Doll became increasingly concerned that Betts was far from normal and desperately in need of professional help. He talked a lot about the “dark, evil things” he heard in his head. He would sometimes check out midway through the conservation, when it seemed like his mind would drift elsewhere.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...0a895c-b79e-11e9-b3b4-2bb69e8c4e39_story.html
Last edited:
sturg33
I
Got it.
So we need a manifesto then.
And if there are no manifestos, but the shooter has MAGA on his social media, there will be no connection made from the media, right?