If the Cards Extent Heyward for...

thethe said:
Markakis will more than likely be a solid contributor at a small salary considering inflation.
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The same could have been said about Uggla and BJ as well. Nick has some positives going forward like a 10-11% K rate which should help him stay at the same level of production a bit longer then high K guys but when your on the wrong side of 30 you can tank literally at any point. That said I don't see the Braves being competitive anytime soon so it's only wasted money.
 
thewupk said:
The same could have been said about Uggla and BJ as well. Nick has some positives going forward like a 10-11% K rate which should help him stay at the same level of production a bit longer then high K guys but when your on the wrong side of 30 you can tank literally at any point. That said I don't see the Braves being competitive anytime soon so it's only wasted money.
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Players who are all or nothing are much more susceptible to thsoe drop offs on productions. Plus with salary inflation nicks contract is much smaller than either upton or ugglas.
 
Dalyn said:
It sure is. If you don't have long term concerns with the core.
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I dont think there are any long term concerns with the core. The long term concerns were with the organizational depth in total. That's why they were proactive in replenishing it.
 
ramadon101 said:
Sure- lets plan on a Taco Mac pre-game meeting sometime and we can stick around and watch the game during the season. FYI I'm heading up my firm's expansion of another office these days so I'm only in Atlanta 1 - 1.5 weeks a month (and when I'm here, I try and spend time with my children since I don't get to see them that often).

For the record- I understand the concept of discounting statements made by the FO because you're right about the fact that they do have an obvious vested interest in protecting their own rears. I get that. I still don't have any reason to question the version I received, but I also acknowledge I wasn't in the room with Close and the Braves contingent.
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This week is before a game, isn't it?
 
thethe said:
I dont think there are any long term concerns with the core. The long term concerns were with the organizational depth in total. That's why they were proactive in replenishing it.
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I respect you enough to believe if you really think about what you are saying you will see the flaw in the Mukaki Rebuild.
 
Dalyn said:
I respect you enough to believe if you really think about what you are saying you will see the flaw in the Mukaki Rebuild.
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I'm really not sure what you mean by this at all. I think it makes sense. First off, the Braves believe (and with good reason) that Markakis will give them similar offensive production for the life of the contract. So while you are losing out on defense the net loss is more than offset by getting a major league ready pitcher for 4 years (which was a HUGE need) as well as a prospect for the future. THen you factor in approximiately the 10-14M savings in cap for when Heyward cashes in and you get even more flexibility. The Upton deal I'm less thrilled with honestly because I wanted him long term but again if the Braves felt they weren't able to sign him then you absolutely have to cash him in.

All these other moves are just buy and sell transactions IMO. If they get even one long term bullpen arm from all these signings then it was a success.
 
thethe said:
I'm really not sure what you mean by this at all. I think it makes sense. First off, the Braves believe (and with good reason) that Markakis will give them similar offensive production for the life of the contract. So while you are losing out on defense the net loss is more than offset by getting a major league ready pitcher for 4 years (which was a HUGE need) as well as a prospect for the future. THen you factor in approximiately the 10-14M savings in cap for when Heyward cashes in and you get even more flexibility. The Upton deal I'm less thrilled with honestly because I wanted him long term but again if the Braves felt they weren't able to sign him then you absolutely have to cash him in.

All these other moves are just buy and sell transactions IMO. If they get even one long term bullpen arm from all these signings then it was a success.
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I'm not just talking about the trades, of course. Just look back on our recent exchange. You said the long term concerns for the health of the organization were already there when they signed the core. So you have a huge question to ask regarding whether that's smart at all if you have questions about the organization, which the core is the most important aspect, at least at the major league level. When it happened, all we heard was that they could build around this core and have a winning team throughout these contracts. That's what they believed. That's what they sold us AND (more important) the core on.

One year changed all that. They decided to blow it up and aim for the magical 2017. When they traded Heyward and signed Markakis, it looked like they might've just decided to grab Markakis and use Heyward to fill a need in the rotation. It had the promise of a plan. For a week or three we were just a few pieces away from fixing the weaknesses exposed during 2014. Then it went full rebuild with another questionable (in light of the full rebuild) signing and the indecision had cost us value in the Upton trade and had saddled the magical 2017 team with a 34-year-old outfielder who is already showing signs of aging. That spot could've been used to see what some of our prospect outfielders can do. To see what we have and don't have before the magical 2017. And the money could've been used after the 2016 season to fill any remaining holes before moving to the new stadium. Most of the strengths of 2014 are gone. The weaknesses are still here with a few more added because of indecision or misjudgment or whatever you want to call it. So some of us look at it that way and have a hard time just accepting that an organization with so many recent bad decisions is making a good one in regards to the Mukaki Rebuild. Recent history suggests that they are not.
 
Dalyn said:
I'm not just talking about the trades, of course. Just look back on our recent exchange. You said the long term concerns for the health of the organization were already there when they signed the core. So you have a huge question to ask regarding whether that's smart at all if you have questions about the organization, which the core is the most important aspect, at least at the major league level. When it happened, all we heard was that they could build around this core and have a winning team throughout these contracts. That's what they believed. That's what they sold us AND (more important) the core on.

One year changed all that. They decided to blow it up and aim for the magical 2017. When they traded Heyward and signed Markakis, it looked like they might've just decided to grab Markakis and use Heyward to fill a need in the rotation. It had the promise of a plan. For a week or three we were just a few pieces away from fixing the weaknesses exposed during 2014. Then it went full rebuild with another questionable (in light of the full rebuild) signing and the indecision had cost us value in the Upton trade and had saddled the magical 2017 team with a 34-year-old outfielder who is already showing signs of aging. That spot could've been used to see what some of our prospect outfielders can do. To see what we have and don't have before the magical 2017. And the money could've been used after the 2016 season to fill any remaining holes before moving to the new stadium. Most of the strengths of 2014 are gone. The weaknesses are still here with a few more added because of indecision or misjudgment or whatever you want to call it. So some of us look at it that way and have a hard time just accepting that an organization with so many recent bad decisions is making a good one in regards to the Mukaki Rebuild. Recent history suggests that they are not.
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Did one year change it or the fact that they had good reason to believe that Jason/Justin were going to walk leaving the team with nothing after 2015? I believe they looked at the team and thought that they wouldn't have won in 2015 so whats the point of riding it out.
 
thethe said:
Did one year change it or the fact that they had good reason to believe that Jason/Justin were going to walk leaving the team with nothing after 2015? I believe they looked at the team and thought that they wouldn't have won in 2015 so whats the point of riding it out.
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Fine. We don't have to disagree or agree on this point because it doesn't change what I said (in fact, it might be a worse way to look at the organization). According to our forum source, they knew after 2013 that Heyward was not going to sign and there was no point in discussing things with him. So again you are left questioning their decisions after that. If they knew this was coming (like you are saying), they made some awful choices in 2013/2014. Which jumps directly to my point on not trusting an organization with so many recent awful decisions when it comes to what they are doing now.
 
Dalyn said:
Fine. We don't have to disagree or agree on this point because it doesn't change what I said (in fact, it might be a worse way to look at the organization). According to our forum source, they knew after 2013 that Heyward was not going to sign and there was no point in discussing things with him. So again you are left questioning their decisions after that. If they knew this was coming (like you are saying), they made some awful choices in 2013/2014. Which jumps directly to my point on not trusting an organization with so many recent awful decisions when it comes to what they are doing now.
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The awful decision was signing BJ Upton. That screwed the organization and put us in this mess. How much better does the team look if you take away BJ/Markakis and you sign Heyward to a long term deal?
 
thethe said:
The awful decision was signing BJ Upton. That screwed the organization and put us in this mess. How much better does the team look if you take away BJ/Markakis and you sign Heyward to a long term deal?
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I won't argue with that.

Let me ask you one more thing. If they knew all of this was coming basically after 2013, why did they not go into rebuild mode after Beachy and Medlen went down and Minor was already having surgery and looking like a question mark for the first month+ of the season? Heyward and Upton had another full year as a bargaining chip then. Instead they made moves that AGAIN indicated that the organization felt it was around a 96-win team on the cusp of another division title and a run at the WS.
 
Dalyn said:
I won't argue with that.

Let me ask you one more thing. If they knew all of this was coming basically after 2013, why did they not go into rebuild mode after Beachy and Medlen went down and Minor was already having surgery and looking like a question mark for the first month+ of the season? Heyward and Upton had another full year as a bargaining chip then. Instead they made moves that AGAIN indicated that the organization felt it was around a 96-win team on the cusp of another division title and a run at the WS.
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Well, Simmons was coming off of a very encouraging offensive season. BJ had one bad year so I bet the thinking was that it was just a fluke and he would bounce back. Why not roll the dice off of a successful season though?
 
thethe said:
Well, Simmons was coming off of a very encouraging offensive season. BJ had one bad year so I bet the thinking was that it was just a fluke and he would bounce back. Why not roll the dice off of a successful season though?
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Why not? Because apparently they had long term concerns and knew a rebuild was coming the next year and had already had a beating before the season even started. They could've jumped to the rebuild and got more for Heyward and Upton (not to mention Johnson) and would've had a MUCH BETTER excuse for the players and fans they conned.
 
Dalyn said:
Why not? Because apparently they had long term concerns and knew a rebuild was coming the next year and had already had a beating before the season even started. They could've jumped to the rebuild and got more for Heyward and Upton (not to mention Johnson) and would've had a MUCH BETTER excuse for the players and fans they conned.
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This is another year of seeing the farm system developing and another draft class not producing.
 
Dalyn said:
Why not? Because apparently they had long term concerns and knew a rebuild was coming the next year and had already had a beating before the season even started. They could've jumped to the rebuild and got more for Heyward and Upton (not to mention Johnson) and would've had a MUCH BETTER excuse for the players and fans they conned.
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So you would have traded them after a 96 win season?

Why not just trade Heyward after his rookie year by this logic.
 
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