Jecki Lon Memorial Star Wars Thread

VirginiaBrave said:
The only SW that exists on the big screen is Lucas SW. Period. I still can't see how 8 can be considered part of the overall story. At least 9 is a fun popcorn movie and if you know anything about the EU you can see elements in it. For me, even Rogue One doesn't supersede the Kyle Katarn arc from the EU.
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I'm fine if you want to consider that. I actually like the idea of Disney reshooting the OT. Even Lucas wasn't super happy with every aspect of the OT. So reshoot it with other actors and actresses and fit it better in Canon.

Episode 8 did so much for the overall story. First it did what a second film in a trilogy should do which is shuttle events from first to the third. Get stuff from A to B. TFA didn't provide it with a ton of setup other than putting Rey into Luke's tutelage and making the plight of the resistance in extreme peril as the Republic was decimated. Johnson built on those to set up a third trilogy where the stars of the new saga would be front and center. Rey wouldn't have to live in Luke's shadow as an apprentice, like how Luke didn't live in Yoda or Obi-Wan's shadow as an apprentice. And Kylo Ren could be the big bad. Again it sucks in a way because Episode 9 offered no payoff. No threads from the previous films were even considered. Instead we're still talking about ****ing Rey's lineage and Snoke's origins which didn't ****ing matter. All while shoehorning in force dyads, Final Order, Sith Troopers, inexplicable force ghosts being able to hold physical objects, and so much more bull****. Again, if we had a payoff with the stories set force rather than JJ throwing all away and attempting to make Infinity War.

Bottom line is JJ sucks, I'll be glad that he won't be involved in Star Wars hopefully ever again. TFA wasn't horrible, but Kasden was incharge of the writing. Come Ep 9 we get JJ and Justice League/Batman v Superman writer adapting a screen play by someone else and further ruining it.

I'm ready to see the future. I am full on let the past die. Gimme that Rian Johnson trilogy, gimme the Taika Waititi film, gimme the Kevin Feige film. Gimme it all. Give me quality directors and writers working on Star Wars without having to deal with butthurt 40 and 50 year olds complaining that Luke got old.
 
zitothebrave said:
I'm fine if you want to consider that. I actually like the idea of Disney reshooting the OT. Even Lucas wasn't super happy with every aspect of the OT. So reshoot it with other actors and actresses and fit it better in Canon.

Episode 8 did so much for the overall story. First it did what a second film in a trilogy should do which is shuttle events from first to the third. Get stuff from A to B. TFA didn't provide it with a ton of setup other than putting Rey into Luke's tutelage and making the plight of the resistance in extreme peril as the Republic was decimated. Johnson built on those to set up a third trilogy where the stars of the new saga would be front and center. Rey wouldn't have to live in Luke's shadow as an apprentice, like how Luke didn't live in Yoda or Obi-Wan's shadow as an apprentice. And Kylo Ren could be the big bad. Again it sucks in a way because Episode 9 offered no payoff. No threads from the previous films were even considered. Instead we're still talking about ****ing Rey's lineage and Snoke's origins which didn't ****ing matter. All while shoehorning in force dyads, Final Order, Sith Troopers, inexplicable force ghosts being able to hold physical objects, and so much more bull****. Again, if we had a payoff with the stories set force rather than JJ throwing all away and attempting to make Infinity War.

Bottom line is JJ sucks, I'll be glad that he won't be involved in Star Wars hopefully ever again. TFA wasn't horrible, but Kasden was incharge of the writing. Come Ep 9 we get JJ and Justice League/Batman v Superman writer adapting a screen play by someone else and further ruining it.

I'm ready to see the future. I am full on let the past die. Gimme that Rian Johnson trilogy, gimme the Taika Waititi film, gimme the Kevin Feige film. Gimme it all. Give me quality directors and writers working on Star Wars without having to deal with butthurt 40 and 50 year olds complaining that Luke got old.
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You are fully entitled to your opinion. Not arguing that, but what I will argue is Star Wars will fail w/o the involvement of the Skywalker bloodline. Broomboy needs to die.
 
I mean I don't think it will happen. Mainly because it would be a big black eye for Disney.

i personally hope they leave the Skywalker Saga, go well into the past or future where people like Luke are legends or not born yet. It's an easier place to play around in.

I do think heavy retcons will happen. But they wouldn't really be necessary if you just fast forward or rewind and play in the universe where Lucas never played, where people have no expectations. It's one of the reasons why I love the Last Jedi, it touches all kinds of new things that didn't exist in Star Wars but were logical next steps. Of course Snoke's ship would be beyond amazing and better than anything we've seen before. Seeing Kylo Ren's tie fighter being something a little more special is great. Seeing that the Raddus is an improvement over old rebellion ship is logical. It's sad that we're still dealing with A and X wings, but we got a new bomber, Gone were the simple relatively ineffective YWings, and replaced them with a high payload bomber, as the Rebellion in the latter parts of the war were winning and needed to change strategies. Oh yeah, and of course the first order would have a bigger badder Star Destroyer in the Dreadnaught. And of course they would improve on the AT-AT. All logical movments, that JJ never did ****all with. Instead we get, wait for it, Starkiller Base, new troop transports, tie fighters, and original Star destroyers, with Deathstar lasers. WOOOOOO
 
I don't know. This much I do know. I am not one to get super hung up on spoilers but I started following him in the fall of last year well before the TLJ release date. By November he had posted a vid review that was shot for shot a review of what we got so that was good enough for me to at least pay attention to. He also says there is a Lucas/JJ cut that exists whether we ever see it or not. I don't see the OT or the PT for that matter ever being redone at all other than visual touch-ups. I think that was a Lucas condition of sale.
 
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I do mean to be a pedant, if you started following him fall of last year it would have been before RoS release. It would have had to have been fall of 2017 for TLJ.

I mean I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility to change the sequels, but I don't think it's likely. At least not soon. For better or worse they exist. What Disney should do is give Filoni all the money to make a Clone Wars type of show to tie in the gaps of all the films. The best part of the prequels is the Clone Wars TV show. And it made Anakin's fall believable, something that wasn't achieved in the Prequel Films. It also fleshed out all kinds of cool concepts.
 
VirginiaBrave said:
My bad. I meant The Rise of Skywalker. He was shot for shot on.
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Fair enough. I just assumed you followed for longer haha.

Unrelated, I forgot that Goransson did the score for the Mandalorian. Homeboy is legit insanely talented.

For those who don't know him in other context, he did Black Panther, he's doing Tenet, he did the Creed films, but he also is superwell known for working with Donald GLover, aka, Childish Gambino. He's so next level talented he pisses me off. Cause he can do it all. He can play, compose, everything. He's so talented.
 
While I would LOVE the last trilogy to be consigned to Legends status and removed from the canon, it wont happen if for no other reason than appearances. You're never going to see a studio admit they screwed up on that level.

Honestly, I think the best we can hope for is that Kennedy gets completely ousted from Lucasfilm and Favreau is handed the reins entirely. We have to remember that it was Kennedy who was in charge during this last trilogy. She allowed the disjointed back and forth between Rian Johnson and Abrams. She bears a lot of the responsibility for dividing the fanbase.

Speaking of dividing the fanbase, I'm tired of people accusing anyone who didn't like the recent trilogy (and especially those that loathed the last Jedi) as "toxic fans". If I go into a restaurant, get served a steaming dog turd, and I complain about it, am I a toxic customer? Of course not. Why then is anyone who Disney is trying to sell Star Wars to considered toxic when they think the Star Wars movies they get are complete crap.

It's interesting that people defending Johnson and Abrams were complaining about how toxic fans have ruined it and how there will never be anything Star Wars again that's not divisive. Then Favreau strolls in and drops Baby Yoda. Universal praise. If you hire people that actually understand the universe and are fans of it, you get a much better product than the crap that has largely been produced since Disney took over.
 
striker42 said:
While I would LOVE the last trilogy to be consigned to Legends status and removed from the canon, it wont happen if for no other reason than appearances. You're never going to see a studio admit they screwed up on that level.

Honestly, I think the best we can hope for is that Kennedy gets completely ousted from Lucasfilm and Favreau is handed the reins entirely. We have to remember that it was Kennedy who was in charge during this last trilogy. She allowed the disjointed back and forth between Rian Johnson and Abrams. She bears a lot of the responsibility for dividing the fanbase.

Speaking of dividing the fanbase, I'm tired of people accusing anyone who didn't like the recent trilogy (and especially those that loathed the last Jedi) as "toxic fans". If I go into a restaurant, get served a steaming dog turd, and I complain about it, am I a toxic customer? Of course not. Why then is anyone who Disney is trying to sell Star Wars to considered toxic when they think the Star Wars movies they get are complete crap.

It's interesting that people defending Johnson and Abrams were complaining about how toxic fans have ruined it and how there will never be anything Star Wars again that's not divisive. Then Favreau strolls in and drops Baby Yoda. Universal praise. If you hire people that actually understand the universe and are fans of it, you get a much better product than the crap that has largely been produced since Disney took over.
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First things first. Art isn't subjectively good or bad. It's art. Films at their core are art. You may not like it, that's fine, but riding it is toxic.

Here's the reality, most people weren't gonna like the new Star Wars trilogy. Most people have matured and formed their Star Wars bond and any changes are bad. It happened 20 years ago with the Prequels, and now the prequel kids are joining the OT people in hating the sequels. That's why it seems strong that the hate is there.

What's toxic is that Disney and Lucasfilm reacted to a minority of fans freaking out. Not trusting the direction of the forward movement and instead moved backwards. If they wanted a fanservice trilogy, they should have written it.

I'm indifferent on Kennedy. She's been behind some great moves and some bad moves. But I do believe that Disney deserves a healthy amount of that blame as it seems like their goal was to recoup their purchase of Lucasfilm ASAP.

I find it ironic that so many people like the Mandalorian but don't like the sequels because lots of elements mirror each other. I remember people being pissed off to no end that Rey could use force powers with no training, but The Child can force Telekinesis, heal and choke. People railed on Rian Johnson for subplots that went "nowhere" but many episodes of the mandalorian have subplots that don't serve much.

Why the Mandalorian is good is it's quality writing and direction. Every person involved is quality. And it's why the Last Jedi is good. Rian Johnson has so much quality packed into a short bit that you miss most of it. Like Favreau, he drew references from Lucas's references, including Kurosawa, and old hollywood, and westerns. Johnson also sneaks in all kinds of references like to the Four Sages of Dwartii, Mustafar, Return of the Jedi, Rogue One, prequels, ideas Lucas had but never put into films (laser sword being mentioned for the first time since Episode I even though it was the original name for Light Saber, the only non-prequel to say Darth Sidious, etc.) a beautiful little "Han Says Hi" on the bomb in the opening sequence, there's so many fine details in it.

And honestly, if all they didn't do was bring Palpatine back in Episode 9, I would have been happier. I could deal with her being a child of Palpatine, but the finale where she has to defeat the Sith and Palpatine ****s all over the Prophecy of the Chosen One that we were told over 3 films and 100+ episodes of the Clone Wars.
 
zitothebrave said:
First things first. Art isn't subjectively good or bad. It's art. Films at their core are art. You may not like it, that's fine, but riding it is toxic.

Here's the reality, most people weren't gonna like the new Star Wars trilogy. Most people have matured and formed their Star Wars bond and any changes are bad. It happened 20 years ago with the Prequels, and now the prequel kids are joining the OT people in hating the sequels. That's why it seems strong that the hate is there.

What's toxic is that Disney and Lucasfilm reacted to a minority of fans freaking out. Not trusting the direction of the forward movement and instead moved backwards. If they wanted a fanservice trilogy, they should have written it.

I'm indifferent on Kennedy. She's been behind some great moves and some bad moves. But I do believe that Disney deserves a healthy amount of that blame as it seems like their goal was to recoup their purchase of Lucasfilm ASAP.

I find it ironic that so many people like the Mandalorian but don't like the sequels because lots of elements mirror each other. I remember people being pissed off to no end that Rey could use force powers with no training, but The Child can force Telekinesis, heal and choke. People railed on Rian Johnson for subplots that went "nowhere" but many episodes of the mandalorian have subplots that don't serve much.

Why the Mandalorian is good is it's quality writing and direction. Every person involved is quality. And it's why the Last Jedi is good. Rian Johnson has so much quality packed into a short bit that you miss most of it. Like Favreau, he drew references from Lucas's references, including Kurosawa, and old hollywood, and westerns. Johnson also sneaks in all kinds of references like to the Four Sages of Dwartii, Mustafar, Return of the Jedi, Rogue One, prequels, ideas Lucas had but never put into films (laser sword being mentioned for the first time since Episode I even though it was the original name for Light Saber, the only non-prequel to say Darth Sidious, etc.) a beautiful little "Han Says Hi" on the bomb in the opening sequence, there's so many fine details in it.

And honestly, if all they didn't do was bring Palpatine back in Episode 9, I would have been happier. I could deal with her being a child of Palpatine, but the finale where she has to defeat the Sith and Palpatine ****s all over the Prophecy of the Chosen One that we were told over 3 films and 100+ episodes of the Clone Wars.
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Star Wars isn't art at this point. It's a commercial product sold to the masses. If I don't like the product they're trying to sell me I can criticize it all I want. It's not toxic, it's capitalism. Attacking the actors involved might be toxic. Criticizing Rian Johnson for making a bad movie or Kennedy for inept handling of the trilogy isn't.

Oddly I had no problem with Rey's ability to use the force. Someone who has gotten into the universe as deep as I have understands the importance of balance in the Force. With the rising power of the Dark Side and little to balance it on the light, the force awoke in Rey. That felt like it belonged more than anything else. I was less thrilled with her lightsaber ability as the use of a lightsaber is largely trained (there are forms and such) but have no problem with intuitive force use.

The Mandalorian is long form story telling. It can have subplots that stretch out over multiple seasons or whose purpose isn't fully known yet. A move has to be much tighter. Rian Johnson wasted so much time in that movie. You get to the end and feel like the story barely moved.

The Mandalorian is good not only because of the excellent people involved, but because the show was run by someone who has the ability of getting the feel of something right. People forget Favreau kicked off the MCU with Iron Man. He understood the tone he needed to strike, the mixture of comedy and action. He achieved it perfectly and every movie since has used his formula. He nailed it on Mandalorian again. In spite of it being essentially a space western, it still felt like Star Wars in a way that hasn't happened since Return of the Jedi.

I honestly don't know what Last Jedi was but it wasn't a Star Wars movie. Honestly none of the new trilogy feel like Star Wars movies. It's like they're set in a different universe that just happen to have familiar faces and item in them.
 
striker42 said:
Star Wars isn't art at this point. It's a commercial product sold to the masses. If I don't like the product they're trying to sell me I can criticize it all I want. It's not toxic, it's capitalism. Attacking the actors involved might be toxic. Criticizing Rian Johnson for making a bad movie or Kennedy for inept handling of the trilogy isn't.

Oddly I had no problem with Rey's ability to use the force. Someone who has gotten into the universe as deep as I have understands the importance of balance in the Force. With the rising power of the Dark Side and little to balance it on the light, the force awoke in Rey. That felt like it belonged more than anything else. I was less thrilled with her lightsaber ability as the use of a lightsaber is largely trained (there are forms and such) but have no problem with intuitive force use.

The Mandalorian is long form story telling. It can have subplots that stretch out over multiple seasons or whose purpose isn't fully known yet. A move has to be much tighter. Rian Johnson wasted so much time in that movie. You get to the end and feel like the story barely moved.

The Mandalorian is good not only because of the excellent people involved, but because the show was run by someone who has the ability of getting the feel of something right. People forget Favreau kicked off the MCU with Iron Man. He understood the tone he needed to strike, the mixture of comedy and action. He achieved it perfectly and every movie since has used his formula. He nailed it on Mandalorian again. In spite of it being essentially a space western, it still felt like Star Wars in a way that hasn't happened since Return of the Jedi.

I honestly don't know what Last Jedi was but it wasn't a Star Wars movie. Honestly none of the new trilogy feel like Star Wars movies. It's like they're set in a different universe that just happen to have familiar faces and item in them.
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Just because art is consumed doesn't mean it isn't art. Ignoring it's contribution as art is silly.

Why wouldn't she be able to wield a lightsaber? We witnessed her being skilled at combat with a martial weapon when she fought off those 2 robbers with her staff despite them having the upper hand. It was established early on. And as I"ve said probably a half dozen times, other people in canon have held their own in combat against people who wanted to kill them or at the very least not recruit them, like when Pre Vizsla fought and held his own against Maul or when Cad Bane fought against Obi Wan.

You're right, it's a different situation. But from it's 8 episodes what real story was told? There's a child in pursuit by elements of the Empire, the bounty hunter saves him/her and continues to protect him/her. And that's the crux of the story. it doesn't tell much. But it works because it is a visual feast. Rian Johnson did what he needed to do as the middle film director. Shuttle the movie along. What really happened in Empire? Like from a story point. Luke receives training, Han and Leia run from the Empire for days only for Han to be caught on cloud city, Luke confronts Vader. That's the story. It's super short on plot. Because films generally are. People expected them to cram War and Peace into a 2 hour film. That's not gonna happen. They wanted to learn who Rey's Parents were, who Snoke was and how he came to power. They wanted to see every possible training Luke could offer, they wanted to see the Knights of Ren battle Luke all at once, and could pick a number of other crazy fan theories. Johnson worked on doing what ESB did. Developing the established characters. He stripped down Poe from a cocky pilot to a leader, Rey from someone obsessed with her past to someone who's clear about her future, Finn from someone who only cared about escaping the first order and Rey to a character who could be the Leia or Han of the new generation as a leader of the rebellion, and Kylo Ren from discount Darth Vader to being the truest form of Darth Vader, he ruled the Galaxy. He set up the finale to work forward with a whole new world.

Favreau is a talented director. But acting like he was key with the MCU is silly. Feige was the one who pushed the MCU and developed it and kept the story straight.

Last Jedi is Star Wars. The reason they don't "feel" like Star Wars is because they aren't your first.
 
zitothebrave said:
Just because art is consumed doesn't mean it isn't art. Ignoring it's contribution as art is silly.

Why wouldn't she be able to wield a lightsaber? We witnessed her being skilled at combat with a martial weapon when she fought off those 2 robbers with her staff despite them having the upper hand. It was established early on. And as I"ve said probably a half dozen times, other people in canon have held their own in combat against people who wanted to kill them or at the very least not recruit them, like when Pre Vizsla fought and held his own against Maul or when Cad Bane fought against Obi Wan.

You're right, it's a different situation. But from it's 8 episodes what real story was told? There's a child in pursuit by elements of the Empire, the bounty hunter saves him/her and continues to protect him/her. And that's the crux of the story. it doesn't tell much. But it works because it is a visual feast. Rian Johnson did what he needed to do as the middle film director. Shuttle the movie along. What really happened in Empire? Like from a story point. Luke receives training, Han and Leia run from the Empire for days only for Han to be caught on cloud city, Luke confronts Vader. That's the story. It's super short on plot. Because films generally are. People expected them to cram War and Peace into a 2 hour film. That's not gonna happen. They wanted to learn who Rey's Parents were, who Snoke was and how he came to power. They wanted to see every possible training Luke could offer, they wanted to see the Knights of Ren battle Luke all at once, and could pick a number of other crazy fan theories. Johnson worked on doing what ESB did. Developing the established characters. He stripped down Poe from a cocky pilot to a leader, Rey from someone obsessed with her past to someone who's clear about her future, Finn from someone who only cared about escaping the first order and Rey to a character who could be the Leia or Han of the new generation as a leader of the rebellion, and Kylo Ren from discount Darth Vader to being the truest form of Darth Vader, he ruled the Galaxy. He set up the finale to work forward with a whole new world.

Favreau is a talented director. But acting like he was key with the MCU is silly. Feige was the one who pushed the MCU and developed it and kept the story straight.

Last Jedi is Star Wars. The reason they don't "feel" like Star Wars is because they aren't your first.
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The primary purpose of Star Wars isn't to make an artistic statement, it's to sell itself to people. If someone is trying to sell me something, me proclaiming I don't like it is perfectly fine. The fact that the label of art is applied to it doesn't change that. Make an art house film and show it at festivals if you want it to be treated as art. If you make a film to be a product sold to people, don't be surprised when it's treated as a product.

I've actually always had issue with Cad Bane and Pre Vizsla holding their own in fights with lightsabers against force users. The force user would know what's about to happen and pretty much immediately kill the non-force user. That aside, Rey being proficient with a staff doesn't mean she'd be proficient with a lightsaber. The force would give her an edge, especially in fights against non-force users. However, fighting someone like Kylo would be more about skill with a lightsaber and Kylo had WAAAAAYYY more training and experience.

Mandalorian tells lots of individual stories in the individual episodes, it world builds, and it sets up story lines that will run over the course of the show. It did everything a first season should do. You're entertained in every episode while slowly building the mythology.

I could go on at length about the problems Last Jedi had not just as a Star Wars movie but as a form of storytelling. From the third of the movie dedicated to Finn and Rose's completely pointless trek to the fact that Johnson took jabs at his audience.

And the "character development" you talk about is totally unfulfilling and contrived. Characters consistently make baffling choices and change in ways that make no sense.

If the MCU was the automobile industry, Favreau would be Karl Benz and Feige is Henry Ford. Favreau invented the marvel movie, Feige mastered reproducing it.

Last Jedi doesn't feel like Star Wars. The prequels felt like Star Wars. They had horrible problems in writing, directing, and acting but they captured the world. Clone Wars feels like Star Wars and is actually exceptional. Last Jedi feels like someone trying to make a film school project using Star Wars characters.
 
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