Lets get a poll on this things to get a feel of where we stand.

ChapelHillMatt said:
Firing the manager isn't going to make the hitters we have good. The overall construction of the team is poor. It's just not a fun team to watch. Give Fredi better players and I'm sure he'll get better results.
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How do you know that if you give the players a better manager they wouldn't hit better? Some managers know how to get more out of players than others. That is one thing Bobby was great at. Fredi is one of the worst managers in MLB and like I've said before we will never be any better than mediocre because of him. I how bad is it going to have to get before the Fredi lovers understand how bad he really is?
 
jason27nc said:
How do you know that if you give the players a better manager they wouldn't hit better? Some managers know how to get more out of players than others. That is one thing Bobby was great at. Fredi is one of the worst managers in MLB and like I've said before we will never be any better than mediocre because of him. I how bad is it going to have to get before the Fredi lovers understand how bad he really is?
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Just go down the lineup, how many players do we have that have proven to be consistently good? Freeman is about the only one you can point to. Everyone else has been inconsistent their whole careers. You call us Fredi lovers, I call you Fredi haters. Everything is his fault no matter what. It's comical, honestly. I'm sure you'll hate the next manager too (if there is one.)
 
The players have failed at what Fredi can't control. Fredi has failed at a lot of what he can control. It's not that complicated, honestly. Everyone shares a part in the blame.
 
It just amazes me Wren is given a free pass by so many on here. The club on the field is his club, he's 100% responsible for it. If there is anyone that should be fired it's him. His free agent signings have hamstrung this organization. I'd have no problem with firing everyone and starting over. I don't like the way this organization looks right now. If Fredi goes then Wren has to go as well.
 
Wren overpaid for BJ, although it was the market price for that position at the time. A lot of people thought it was an overpay. NOT ONE saw the Mendoza line being renamed for him. Cursing his manager to another team's player, loafing, tanking plays (Yes, I said it) and all that.

Fredi knows BJ sucks and continues to start him, and for a good chunk of the season, he gave him the most ABs on the team. That is absolutely moronic and indefensible.

These are mostly the same guys that won 96 games last year.

How some of you still fail to recognize how terrible our manager is in close games is beyond me.
 
ChapelHillMatt said:
It just amazes me Wren is given a free pass by so many on here. The club on the field is his club, he's 100% responsible for it. If there is anyone that should be fired it's him. His free agent signings have hamstrung this organization. I'd have no problem with firing everyone and starting over. I don't like the way this organization looks right now. If Fredi goes then Wren has to go as well.
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Wren has done some good things, but on balance I think he's been pretty bad. I think it all stems from him not having a blueprint of what he wants this team to look like. He just collects parts and throws them together. As a result, we have this kind of Rube Goldberg contraption that is hit-or-miss and it's been missing.

That said, I wouldn't have a problem if Gonzalez were fired, but he's running someone else's team out there.
 
ChapelHillMatt said:
Just go down the lineup, how many players do we have that have proven to be consistently good? Freeman is about the only one you can point to. Everyone else has been inconsistent their whole careers. You call us Fredi lovers, I call you Fredi haters. Everything is his fault no matter what. It's comical, honestly. I'm sure you'll hate the next manager too (if there is one.)
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See that is where you are wrong. I have been around baseball all of my life and have actually coached some big time games. I have also umpired some big time games. Saying that I along with a lot of others on here can see that he is just not a good manager. He is ok when we have a 3 or 4 run lead. If he has to try to manufacturer runs we are **** out of luck. The does not know how to play to win the game. He is awful at knowing his players and knowing where and when to play them also. As far as the next manager goes, I loved Bobby and as long as the next guy has a clue I will like him.

Oh and for the record I think Wren and about half of that lineup needs to be on the same bus as Fredi heading out of town. But a good manager would get more out of these players.
 
I prefer to keep it simple. At five games over .500, this might be one of the most underachieving Braves teams I have seen since the 1994 bunch.
 
rico43 said:
I prefer to keep it simple. At five games over .500, this might be one of the most underachieving Braves teams I have seen since the 1994 bunch.
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I agree that the whole is less than the sum of the parts, but there are a few bats in the line-up and arms in the bullpen that have just been killing us. The move to get Bonifacio, which I supported, is even starting to puzzle me because his ABs are so intermittent they don't make sense at all.

My only real beef with Gonzalez is his use of the bullpen, where he has come up short by not getting of the guys except Walden and Kimbrel in assigned roles and leaving them there. I always thought Gonzalez handled his bullpen well in Miami, so this surprises me a bit.

If we don't make the playoffs, Gonzalez will be gone. I have no doubts of that. Wren buys himself another year with a new guy at the helm, but there will be no more excuses for him after that. There has been a ton of excuses made for Wren on this board, but his record is mixed at best. He hasn't behaved like a mid-market team when he should have by doling out huge contracts to sub-par players (and that includes Uggla who I felt wouldn't perform up to his contract and yes, although I am an idiot, I saw that coming). He's burned money in a barrel with Lowe, Kawakami, Uggla, and Upton the Elder and if you are supposedly a mid-market team, you can't do that. He is one of the least reflective and most reflexive GM I've ever watched.
 
There were other CFs we could have had, but a lot of people either didn't want to re-sign Bourn (He would have cost more than what Cleveland got him for), or they wanted to horde prospects and not trade for someone. They also complained about Spann and Revere, who has been kicking our ass.
 
bravesnumberone said:
There were other CFs we could have had, but a lot of people either didn't want to re-sign Bourn (He would have cost more than what Cleveland got him for), or they wanted to horde prospects and not trade for someone. They also complained about Spann and Revere, who has been kicking our ass.
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But that is when a GM has to get creative and not simply start tossing around dollars--especially big dollars--indiscriminately. Seeing that the Nats got Span for Meyer, I wouldn't have been surprised if we couldn't have gotten Span for a deal featuring J.R. Graham. Shorter commitment, less money. I would have even thrown another prospect in the deal to get Span. Again, it's the shorter commitment piece that Wren simply doesn't think about. He needs to learn to walk away.
 
At that time, people would have called for his head had he traded Graham for Spann. Also, wasn't signing BJ a big chip in bringing Justin in? That's what everyone made it seem like.
 
bravesnumberone said:
At that time, people would have called for his head had he traded Graham for Spann. Also, wasn't signing BJ a big chip in bringing Justin in? That's what everyone made it seem like.
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Graham? Jeez. If that had been the case, then the prospect-overrating on this board would have reached an all-time level of ridiculousness.
 
50PoundHead said:
Graham? Jeez. If that had been the case, then the prospect-overrating on this board would have reached an all-time level of ridiculousness.
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There were people on here ready to anoint him the next Kimbrel. I just remember a lot of trade proposals for Spann, as well as guys like Bradley from Cleveland and Saunders from Seattle that were ridiculed because people wanted to hold on to every really good prospect.
 
Anyway, point being. BJ was an overpay that's going to hurt us over the next few years, but it was not that terrible of a deal. With the exception of 2009, he had no full season in TB that came close to approaching these last two. And there was constant talk of signing him and bringing in Justin and having the best OF in baseball.

Wren messed up and hasn't had a good track record with free agents, but before we throw him under the bus, let's not forget some of his brilliant trades. Justin Upton, Jordan Walden, Michael Bourn, etc.
 
bravesnumberone said:
Anyway, point being. BJ was an overpay that's going to hurt us over the next few years, but it was not that terrible of a deal. With the exception of 2009, he had no full season in TB that came close to approaching these last two. And there was constant talk of signing him and bringing in Justin and having the best OF in baseball.

Wren messed up and hasn't had a good track record with free agents, but before we throw him under the bus, let's not forget some of his brilliant trades. Justin Upton, Jordan Walden, Michael Bourn, etc.
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And that basically negates any of the good he's done. Wren's poor decisions have left us with huge holes in the line-up and a sub-par bullpen. He simply doesn't have a blueprint that he sticks to.

If you are going to be a GM with the supposed salary constraints faced by Wren, you simply don't hand out long-term deals. I'm even starting to question the deal he handed out to Freeman. It constricts flexibility.
 
jason27nc said:
See that is where you are wrong. I have been around baseball all of my life and have actually coached some big time games. I have also umpired some big time games. Saying that I along with a lot of others on here can see that he is just not a good manager. He is ok when we have a 3 or 4 run lead. If he has to try to manufacturer runs we are **** out of luck. The does not know how to play to win the game. He is awful at knowing his players and knowing where and when to play them also. As far as the next manager goes, I loved Bobby and as long as the next guy has a clue I will like him.

Oh and for the record I think Wren and about half of that lineup needs to be on the same bus as Fredi heading out of town. But a good manager would get more out of these players.
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BJ Upton played for probably the best manager in the game and he's never been that good. Why couldn't Joe Maddon get more out of him? I think some managers can get more out of players than others, I don't disagree with you there but where I disagree is the notion that there is a lot of talent on this team. I just don't see it, never have. I think you loving Bobby is a case where you love him based on his resume. I know people were very critical of his managing when he was here. He made a lot of head scratching moves. His teams didn't make the playoffs that often the last few years either so it's not like he was winning a lot of championships. Managers as a whole get too much blame when they are losing and too much credit when they are winning.
 
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