yeezus
It's OVER 5,000!
fWAR is used as the holy grail for statheads until it doesn't suit their argument.
will be interesting to see if you use bWAR from here on out, though.
MLB Network releases their Top 100 MLB Players List...not a Brave to be found
- Thread starter praeceps93
- Start date
fWAR is used as the holy grail for statheads until it doesn't suit their argument.
will be interesting to see if you use bWAR from here on out, though.
I use both as they both bring different things to the table. However I prefer DRS over UZR for defense and that's what B-Ref uses. Like I said. It depends on how you rate his defense.
Real world value does matter when talking about building a team with your available resources. However I don't think that should matter when it comes to on the field performance. Defense for the most part has always been undervalued in the free agent market.
Not really.
weso1
<B>Clique Leader</B>
What do you base this on thought? You guys are just saying he doesn't belong on the list, but aren't really backing it up with anything. He's one of the best defensive OF's in baseball and a plus baserunner and likely at worst an avg hitting CF.
It doesn't matter that much. I like Inciarte. I wouldn't have a problem if someone had him in a top 100 list, but I also don't have a problem if someone doesn't. Different people have different opinions. The fact that Freeman isn't on the list seems dumb; the fact that Inciarte isn't seems understandable. I have an issue with Niners saying Inciarte definitely shouldn't be on the list, but I also have an issue with someone saying he definitely should be.
DirkPiggler
Well-known member
Logan Forsythe is 58th? I'm a Razorback fan, and love to see former Hogs do well, but Jesus Hiram Christ that list is bad.
Just to play devil's advocate here, isn't it possible defense is being valued properly in the market and simply being overvalued in the stathead community?
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
Yes.
But odds are it is not.
Remember if you would reading Moneyball. Talking about the overvaluing of speed and defense. Well things have flipped.
Bottom line is that defense is generally undervalued because it's hard to value. WE're getting closer and closer to getting an accurate value on fielding, and maybe someday we'll be there.
It's possible. But then you look at a team like the 2015 Royals. How did they win 95 games? Their pitching and offense were both average. Yet their defense was far and away the best in the AL.
yeezus
It's OVER 5,000!
Cleveland had the 4th highest fWAR in the AL, finished barely above .500.
KC was great at not striking out and getting big hits - for the 2nd year in a row - but we're told this is all luck and striking out is OK. If you're going to credit their defense, credit their ability to put the ball in play and give themselves a shot, too.
yeezus
It's OVER 5,000!
lol, how so? It's pretty much literally all that matters.
You're saying the guys getting paid huge money - the ones with their careers on the line - don't know any better (or maybe know LESS) than someone who goes on baseballref.com and reads a stat. I don't see a single team who would value Simmons higher than Freeman. How is that irrelevant?
Yeah their ability to not strike out still lead them to being 6th in the AL in runs scored. So....average.
As far as the Indians go. They were a good team that just played ****ty against their down division. Again, WAR isn't perfect. But I don't see how you can look at a team like the Royals and not credit their defense as the main reason for their success.
That hasn't really been the case for a few years. fWAR is mostly used since their website is better for sorting information but I doubt anyone would deny that DRS > UZR.
So your saying that teams haven't paid players like Ryan Howard enormous amounts of money due to homers and rbi (two stats traditionally way overvalued on the open market)?
yeezus
It's OVER 5,000!
If Ryan Howard was getting that $25M in his prime, it would have been worth it. He's a great example. Anyone who watched those Phillies teams play every night knows how insanely valuable he was, and how he could easily turn any game around with one swing. He was terrifying to face. Even in 2010, when he was apparently only worth 1 win.
And you're suggesting front offices are missing so bad on which players to pay, but you know better because you can go to baseball ref (and the people who's livelihood's depend on this stuff apparently can't do that).
Do you feel Simmons should be getting paid more than Freeman?
No. Logically, it is not all that matters.
What matters is who is actually more valuable, not who the market deems most valuable. I'm not saying all these teams are dumb or wrong. I'm just saying that as a logical argument, what matters is who is actually better, not who is paid more.
Playing in a bad division helped their overall record. But they played a ton of close ball games. Sure defense helped. But so did having an amazing BP that didn't surrender leads and also timely base running, which they are also known for. And didn't they lead the league (or were close) in OBP?
Edit: looks line they were 11th. Still, they were above average to great in basically every facet of the game. A team with very few weaknesses. More than 1 way to skin a cat as they say.