MLB Network releases their Top 100 MLB Players List...not a Brave to be found

[chop2chip]

Cleveland had the 4th highest fWAR in the AL, finished barely above .500.

KC was great at not striking out and getting big hits - for the 2nd year in a row - but we're told this is all luck and striking out is OK. If you're going to credit their defense, credit their ability to put the ball in play and give themselves a shot, too.

I know you aren't directly stating this, but I think it's worth mentioning anyways. If there is a model of team building that we are following, it's definitely not the Royals blue print. In fact, we are trading away from our defense and bullpen in favor of high end starting pitching which doesn't really resemble anything Dayton Moore has ever done.

 

[thewupk]

If Ryan Howard was getting that $25M in his prime, it would have been worth it. He's a great example. Anyone who watched those Phillies teams play every night knows how insanely valuable he was, and how he could easily turn any game around with one swing. He was terrifying to face. Even in 2010, when he was apparently only worth 1 win.

And you're suggesting front offices are missing so bad on which players to pay, but you know better because you can go to baseball ref (and the people who's livelihood's depend on this stuff apparently can't do that).

Do you feel Simmons should be getting paid more than Freeman?

Howard was nowhere close worth 25 million in 2010 or 2011 when he was so 'terrifying' to face. But again if you put premium dollars on homeruns and rbi and ignore the rest of what a player brings then I can see someone having that opinion. Defense is a different beast than offense with it being less reliable on a year to year basis than offense and likely to peak early and fade quicker than offense. Also considering it takes an all-world defender to be equal to a good hitter. Simmons is the exception and not the rule in these scenarios. Most all glove players are nowhere close to as valuable as someone like Freeman.

So no I don't feel Simmons should be getting paid more than Freeman. Freeman is likely to be more valuable for longer as they get older and that's part of what goes into contracts. That still doesn't change the fact that Simmons has had some insanely valuable seasons due to having some of the best defensive seasons in the history of the game.

 

[thewupk]

Playing in a bad division helped their overall record. But they played a ton of close ball games. Sure defense helped. But so did having an amazing BP that didn't surrender leads and also timely base running, which they are also known for. And didn't they lead the league (or were close) in OBP?

Edit: looks line they were 11th. Still, they were above average to great in basically every facet of the game. A team with very few weaknesses. More than 1 way to skin a cat as they say.

Yes their division boosted their record as they were like a 90 win team according to WAR. And yes they were average or better in most if not all areas of the game. Their BP is one area where the excelled in. The other was their defense which really sticks out.

I just find it amusing that the narrative has changed. 10 years ago defense mattered to the traditionalists and these new offensive stats didn't mean anything. Now that statheads have found a way to pretty accurately (imo) gauge defense and find their true value the traditionalists say its overvalued.

Team WAR is a pretty accurate measure. Generally on par or better with a teams pythag record. To me it works and eventually it will become more accepted as time goes on.

 

[thewupk]

I know you aren't directly stating this, but I think it's worth mentioning anyways. If there is a model of team building that we are following, it's definitely not the Royals blue print. In fact, we are trading away from our defense and bullpen in favor of high end starting pitching which doesn't really resemble anything Dayton Moore has ever done.

I think we are going after the Giants model. High end pitching with an offense that eventually just has no holes in it even if it doesn't have many if any stud hitters.

 

[smootness]

I think we are going after the Giants model. High end pitching with an offense that eventually just has no holes in it even if it doesn't have many if any stud hitters.

I think that's the short-term plan. I think the long-term plan is to have high-end pitching with high-end bats. Pretty good plan if you can pull it off.

 

[gilesfan]

If Ryan Howard was getting that $25M in his prime, it would have been worth it. He's a great example. Anyone who watched those Phillies teams play every night knows how insanely valuable he was, and how he could easily turn any game around with one swing. He was terrifying to face. Even in 2010, when he was apparently only worth 1 win.

And you're suggesting front offices are missing so bad on which players to pay, but you know better because you can go to baseball ref (and the people who's livelihood's depend on this stuff apparently can't do that).

Do you feel Simmons should be getting paid more than Freeman?

Phillies fans have never really liked Howard that much. The ones I know always hated how much he struck out and couldn't hit lefties.

He should never have been paid 25 million per year.

 

[50PoundHead]

Howard was nowhere close worth 25 million in 2010 or 2011 when he was so 'terrifying' to face. But again if you put premium dollars on homeruns and rbi and ignore the rest of what a player brings then I can see someone having that opinion. Defense is a different beast than offense with it being less reliable on a year to year basis than offense and likely to peak early and fade quicker than offense. Also considering it takes an all-world defender to be equal to a good hitter. Simmons is the exception and not the rule in these scenarios. Most all glove players are nowhere close to as valuable as someone like Freeman.

So no I don't feel Simmons should be getting paid more than Freeman. Freeman is likely to be more valuable for longer as they get older and that's part of what goes into contracts. That still doesn't change the fact that Simmons has had some insanely valuable seasons due to having some of the best defensive seasons in the history of the game.

Value is often contingent on who is surrounding any given player. Howard played "bat" for the Phillies. Unfortunately, unlike similar body type and fellow horrid fielder David Ortiz, Howard had to go onto the playing field with a glove in his hand every half-inning and his deficiencies showed up. I kind of laugh when Braves' fans decry the front office for not signing Ortiz instead of Fick (not that I like Fick) lo those years ago, because if you think Howard is a bad fielder, Ortiz is equally as bad. Every player is risk/reward. For every player except those in the very top tier, you balance strengths and weaknesses and try to get a mix on the field that maximizes team performance. Utley's prowess at 2B mitigated Howard's lack of range. Howard has fallen off dramatically due to injury (and probably, unlike Ortiz, he has to go out into the field every half inning). But he was good. $25 MM good? Probably not. But that doesn't mean he wasn't extremely valuable to that Phillies' team.

 

[thewupk]

Value is often contingent on who is surrounding any given player. Howard played "bat" for the Phillies. Unfortunately, unlike similar body type and fellow horrid fielder David Ortiz, Howard had to go onto the playing field with a glove in his hand every half-inning and his deficiencies showed up. I kind of laugh when Braves' fans decry the front office for not signing Ortiz instead of Fick (not that I like Fick) lo those years ago, because if you think Howard is a bad fielder, Ortiz is equally as bad. Every player is risk/reward. For every player except those in the very top tier, you balance strengths and weaknesses and try to get a mix on the field that maximizes team performance. Utley's prowess at 2B mitigated Howard's lack of range. Howard has fallen off dramatically due to injury (and probably, unlike Ortiz, he has to go out into the field every half inning). But he was good. $25 MM good? Probably not. But that doesn't mean he wasn't extremely valuable to that Phillies' team.

Yeah from 06-09 he was really valuable. The point I'm making is that after that the rest of his skills declined hard yet he still had the homers and RBI and got paid ridiculously for it.

 

[clvclv]

I know you aren't directly stating this, but I think it's worth mentioning anyways. If there is a model of team building that we are following, it's definitely not the Royals blue print. In fact, we are trading away from our defense and bullpen in favor of high end starting pitching which doesn't really resemble anything Dayton Moore has ever done.

Other than the Kimbrel trade (that HAD to be made), when have the Braves traded away significant long-term bullpen pieces???

Vizcaino - acquired during the rebuild.
Withrow - acquired during the rebuild.
Rodriguez - acquired during the rebuild.
Simmons - returning from injury.

Several of the eventual "failed starters" will be utilized as important pen pieces - exactly as Wade Davis and Luke Hochevar are. Within the next two years, Folty, Banuelos, Wisler, Sims, Jenkins, Gant, etc. could all fit that mold - they certainly won't trade all of them.

 

[smootness]

Other than the Kimbrel trade (that HAD to be made), when have the Braves traded away significant long-term bullpen pieces???

Vizcaino - acquired during the rebuild.
Withrow - acquired during the rebuild.
Rodriguez - acquired during the rebuild.
Simmons - returning from injury.

Several of the eventual "failed starters" will be utilized as important pen pieces - exactly as Wade Davis and Luke Hochevar are. Within the next two years, Folty, Banuelos, Wisler, Sims, Jenkins, Gant, etc. could all fit that mold - they certainly won't trade all of them.

Not to mention that while we traded away Heyward and Simmons, we also acquired Inciarte and Swanson. We obviously still value defense.

 

[chop2chip]

Other than the Kimbrel trade (that HAD to be made)

I mean... that's a pretty big one right? If the Royals model of a shutdown bullpen is what we were implementing, then we would probably try to hang onto the 26 year old fire breathing dragon.

And you are probably right that many of these starters could be moved to the bullpen, but that wasn't why they were initially acquired, which is my point.

Now, this isn't me suggesting that the FO is doing anything wrong because I prefer this approach. I just really don't understand the Royals comparisons which are born out of the Dayton Moore/Braves connection, not on roster construction.

 

[chop2chip]

Not to mention that while we traded away Heyward and Simmons, we also acquired Inciarte and Swanson. We obviously still value defense.

False dichotomy. The Braves can still "value defense", while not valuing it as much. The Braves did acquire Inciarte, but they also signed Markakis, traded for Olivera, traded Simmons (whom they absolutely did not have to trade), plan to start Adonis garcia, etc. What indication do those moves have that they are following the Royals blue print?

 

[striker42]

False dichotomy. The Braves can still "value defense", while not valuing it as much. The Braves did acquire Inciarte, but they also signed Markakis, traded for Olivera, traded Simmons (whom they absolutely did not have to trade), plan to start Adonis garcia, etc. What indication do those moves have that they are following the Royals blue print?

I think there is a valuing of defense but, as you said, just not as much as a team like KC. Though I don't agree with all of your examples. The value on defense actually put on the field last year and this year is almost non-existent. Markakis was brought in to be a veteran leader in a very young clubhouse. Also he was signed to give us at least one steady hitter in the lineup apart from Freeman so you don't put too much pressure on younger players.

As for Hector, I think the Braves thought Olivera was going to be an above average defensive third baseman. There really did seem to be a sense of surprise at how bad he was out there. This seems more like a whiff by the scouts than a sign that they don't care about defense.

Ultimately, defense will still be valued in the long term. The Braves are high on guys like Swanson and Ozzie because they're good fielders in addition to having offensive potential. They're not going to build the pitching staff they're trying to build only to saddle it with a bunch of lead gloves.

I think we'll get a better feel for the position player side of things over the next year. The focus has been so much on the pitching side of the rebuild that we're only just now seeing the start of the position player rebuild. I expect solid defense to be a consistent theme moving forward. We wont be the Royals but we wont have a team full of Markakises and Oliveras.

 

[clvclv]

I mean... that's a pretty big one right? If the Royals model of a shutdown bullpen is what we were implementing, then we would probably try to hang onto the 26 year old fire breathing dragon.

And you are probably right that many of these starters could be moved to the bullpen, but that wasn't why they were initially acquired, which is my point.

Now, this isn't me suggesting that the FO is doing anything wrong because I prefer this approach. I just really don't understand the Royals comparisons which are born out of the Dayton Moore/Braves connection, not on roster construction.

You'd prefer to keep B. J./Melvin?

Kimbrel had been a starter and closer when he was drafted in 2008. You want an under 25 year old "fire breathing dragon"? Take the changeup and either the slider or curve away from Folty and you have a 6'4" Kimbrel.

 

[smootness]

False dichotomy. The Braves can still "value defense", while not valuing it as much. The Braves did acquire Inciarte, but they also signed Markakis, traded for Olivera, traded Simmons (whom they absolutely did not have to trade), plan to start Adonis garcia, etc. What indication do those moves have that they are following the Royals blue print?

We probably agree for the most part. I wasn't arguing we still value defense just as much, just that we obviously still value it. And I wasn't trying to say we're trying to copy the Royals approach. We're obviously trying to get as many high-upside pieces as we can, and those pieces all bring something different to the table.

 

[chop2chip]

You'd prefer to keep B. J./Melvin?

This isn't what I said. This is what I said, "Now, this isn't me suggesting that the FO is doing anything wrong because I prefer this approach."

Kimbrel had been a starter and closer when he was drafted in 2008. You want an under 25 year old "fire breathing dragon"? Take the changeup and either the slider or curve away from Folty and you have a 6'4" Kimbrel.

We didn't trade for Folty to be a relief pitcher. Furthermore, I don't think a "6'4" Kimbrel" is as simple to develop as you make it sound.

 

[chop2chip]

We're obviously trying to get as many high-upside pieces as we can, and those pieces all bring something different to the table.

Which is simply a much better approach to team-building than dressing up like last year's prom queen.

 

[clvclv]

This isn't what I said. This is what I said, "Now, this isn't me suggesting that the FO is doing anything wrong because I prefer this approach."

We didn't trade for Folty to be a relief pitcher. Furthermore, I don't think a "6'4" Kimbrel" is as simple to develop as you make it sound.

I'll roll the dice...

Kimbrel:

2009 - 6.8 BB/9
2010 - 5.7 BB/9 in Gwinnett, 7.0 BB/9 in Atlanta

Take the pitches Folty can't throw for strikes away from him and tell him to just go after them and see what happens.

We didn't sign Albies or trade for Swanson to be a 2B either, did we? Who cares as long as the player becomes productive in whatever role he winds up in. Chipper was drafted as a SS. Murphy was drafted as a Catcher.

 

[chop2chip]

I'll roll the dice...

Kimbrel:

2009 - 6.8 BB/9
2010 - 5.7 BB/9 in Gwinnett, 7.0 BB/9 in Atlanta

Take the pitches Folty can't throw for strikes away from him and tell him to just go after them and see what happens.

We didn't sign Albies or trade for Swanson to be a 2B either, did we? Who cares as long as the player becomes productive in whatever role he winds up in. Chipper was drafted as a SS. Murphy was drafted as a Catcher.

I'm still holding out hope (as I'm sure the Braves are as well) that he makes it as a starter. I understand what you are saying that the Braves could end up building a solid bullpen on accident since they are playing with the odds that a few of these arms settle as bullpen pieces. My initial point was, and still is, that the Braves aren't approaching team building with the same ideas that Dayton Moore did. I like the comparison thewupk used, the Giants. To me, them or the Mets make much more sense as a comparison to the process we are using, except we seem much more interested in investing in the international market than either team.

 

[Carp]

You can model after another team while still adopting fundamentally different philosphies in certain areas. Such as the Royals haven't tapped into the interational market nearly as frequently as the Braves do.