Not what AA will do, but what he should do...

[Horsehide Harry]

If other clubs sensed that there wasn't a certain level of seriousness, discussions wouldn't have made it that far. Those were only 2 known examples. Who knows what else might have been offered?

Used to tangle with Mike Adams at Scout over Cox's job as GM. Apart from the stockpiling of young pitchers, his work was very spotty. To be fair, it was likely a situation of Stan Kasten deliberately wanting the team to suck so badly and for so long. Revenues were solid with Superstation TBS, and it assured high draft positions. Tanking strategy before it became fashionable.

I agree.

I will say that I think Cox's period as GM was much better than anything JS ever did. To me, JS's claim to fame is that he didn't screw things up too badly, too fast. Outside of that he mostly lived off the production of players that he didn't draft. I will give him the McGriff trade which was a classic move to take advantage of a wounded team (Padres).

 

[Knucksie]

I agree.

I will say that I think Cox's period as GM was much better than anything JS ever did. To me, JS's claim to fame is that he didn't screw things up too badly, too fast. Outside of that he mostly lived off the production of players that he didn't draft. I will give him the McGriff trade which was a classic move to take advantage of a wounded team (Padres).

Cox had a tendency to bring in washed up vets, just to round out the roster. It's understood that JS is the favorite whipping boy around here, but Cox could never have helped turn the team into championship caliber as GM. The Pendleton, Bream and Belliard signings, plus Otix Nixon trade. Improved professionalism, leadership and defense (OK, Otis may not have helped with some of that!). The Crime Dog trade was brilliant, but how could anyone forget Marqis Grissom? The Maddux free agent signing? Et al.

 

[50PoundHead]

Cox had a tendency to bring in washed up vets, just to round out the roster. It's understood that JS is the favorite whipping boy around here, but Cox could never have helped turn the team into championship caliber as GM. The Pendleton, Bream and Belliard signings, plus Otix Nixon trade. Improved professionalism, leadership and defense (OK, Otis may not have helped with some of that!). The Crime Dog trade was brilliant, but how could anyone forget Marqis Grissom? The Maddux free agent signing? Et al.

I think the combination of Cox and Snyder built the foundation, but they seemed to want to continue to rely on the development of prospects. Schuerholz came in and pulled the trigger on bringing in a few guys who elevated the team. After that, I think Schuerholz benefited greatly from having a big budget at his disposal. I always thought he shot about 50% after the first few years.

 

[Knucksie]

I think the combination of Cox and Snyder built the foundation, but they seemed to want to continue to rely on the development of prospects. Schuerholz came in and pulled the trigger on bringing in a few guys who elevated the team. After that, I think Schuerholz benefited greatly from having a big budget at his disposal. I always thought he shot about 50% after the first few years.

Also, to be fair, they became prisoners of their own success during the 90's. With annual playoff appearances, that meant no high 1st round draft positions. At the same time, some of the top Cox picks didn't pan out (Tyler Houston, Derek Lilliquist). Be assured, Todd Van Poppel would have been the guy, so he lucked into Chipper.

 

[Horsehide Harry]

Also, to be fair, they became prisoners of their own success during the 90's. With annual playoff appearances, that meant no high 1st round draft positions. At the same time, some of the top Cox picks didn't pan out (Tyler Houston, Derek Lilliquist). Be assured, Todd Van Poppel would have been the guy, so he lucked into Chipper.

Not disagreeing with anything. I will say that the Cox/Snyder team that finally said "rebuild from the ground up" in the mid 80's set the stage. Did they make mistakes? Surely. Lots of them. But they had lots of successes as well. I agree with 50 that JS was probably about 50%. But on the Maddux signing, I will say that at least part of that was Bobby's reputation as a players manager. Also, a number of the hometown discount signings along the way had nothing to do with JS and everything to do with Bobby. They were flawed no doubt. But I still think Bobby was much more responsible for the golden age than JS.

 

[clvclv]

I think the combination of Cox and Snyder built the foundation, but they seemed to want to continue to rely on the development of prospects. Schuerholz came in and pulled the trigger on bringing in a few guys who elevated the team. After that, I think Schuerholz benefited greatly from having a big budget at his disposal. I always thought he shot about 50% after the first few years.

This is why I'm so thrilled with bringing AA in. While he can't go completely all-in like he did in Toronto, he's not so closely attached to these prospects and the rebuild that he won't make a big move or two to help the team take the next step and contend at the MLB level. With Freeman, Ender, Albies, Acuna, Gohara, Newcomb, Wright, and Soroka under control through at least 2021 it's just not realistic to argue that they can't be competitive for the next 5 or so years with a couple strong additions. We all realize that that discussion is considered ridiculous around these parts anymore, but it just isn't.

Lots of people hate the idea of a Moustakas signing, but would it really be that bad? Even if you give him 5 years, he still won't be 35 at the end of that deal, and you could be looking at a lineup that consists of Ender, Albies, Freddie, Acuna, and Moose for the next half decade. Lots of people hate the idea of making a play for a TOR arm like Archer or Fulmer, but if you could land one of them while holding onto Gohara, Newcomb, and Wright, would it really be that bad? If you had one of those guys to go with Gohara, and had two of the rest for the foreseeable future, that's pretty strong.

Sure that seems to shorten that LONG period of contention many seem to strive for, but does anyone seriously believe that 10 year windows will ever actually exist again now that everyone has begun to embrace analytics more - even if they've fought it tooth and nail? The Cubs were the be-all, end-all a year ago and are an afterthought now that the Astros have arrived. The landscape is going to suddenly change again now that the Yankees' finances aren't so terrible anymore. After the Coppygate fiasco, our ability to keep adding amazing depth to our system is going to be severely limited anyway.

Put a team together for the next 5 years that gives you a legitimate shot, and see how things shake out - all the other teams are going to have to make painful adjustments as well. This season is the Gnats' last shot with Harper, and we could be in a position to step right into their spot really quickly IF Albies and Acuna are what we think they are.

 

[Knucksie]

Not disagreeing with anything. I will say that the Cox/Snyder team that finally said "rebuild from the ground up" in the mid 80's set the stage. Did they make mistakes? Surely. Lots of them. But they had lots of successes as well. I agree with 50 that JS was probably about 50%. But on the Maddux signing, I will say that at least part of that was Bobby's reputation as a players manager. Also, a number of the hometown discount signings along the way had nothing to do with JS and everything to do with Bobby. They were flawed no doubt. But I still think Bobby was much more responsible for the golden age than JS.

It's a more conjecture that Cox's reputation was what swayed Maddux in December 1992. Schuerholz still had to negotiate a contract with a pitcher, who claimed to love and not want to leave Chicago. The Yankees were known to have made a bigger offer.

OTOH, Cox had no track record of signing big time free agents. I'm fact, Andre Dawson and Tim Raines offered a package deal, which would have accelerated the rebuilt and were rebuffed. Dawson told the Cubs to name their price. They gave him $100,000 for an MVP year on a last place team. Granted, it was during collusion, but Cox did not navigate free agency effectively. His entire job was to stockpile young pitching, which he did. However, as some previously cited examples showed, it clouded his judgment at times.

 

[Horsehide Harry]

This is why I'm so thrilled with bringing AA in. While he can't go completely all-in like he did in Toronto, he's not so closely attached to these prospects and the rebuild that he won't make a big move or two to help the team take the next step and contend at the MLB level. With Freeman, Ender, Albies, Acuna, Gohara, Newcomb, Wright, and Soroka under control through at least 2021 it's just not realistic to argue that they can't be competitive for the next 5 or so years with a couple strong additions. We all realize that that discussion is considered ridiculous around these parts anymore, but it just isn't.

Lots of people hate the idea of a Moustakas signing, but would it really be that bad? Even if you give him 5 years, he still won't be 35 at the end of that deal, and you could be looking at a lineup that consists of Ender, Albies, Freddie, Acuna, and Moose for the next half decade. Lots of people hate the idea of making a play for a TOR arm like Archer or Fulmer, but if you could land one of them while holding onto Gohara, Newcomb, and Wright, would it really be that bad? If you had one of those guys to go with Gohara, and had two of the rest for the foreseeable future, that's pretty strong.

Sure that seems to shorten that LONG period of contention many seem to strive for, but does anyone seriously believe that 10 year windows will ever actually exist again now that everyone has begun to embrace analytics more - even if they've fought it tooth and nail? The Cubs were the be-all, end-all a year ago and are an afterthought now that the Astros have arrived. The landscape is going to suddenly change again now that the Yankees' finances aren't so terrible anymore. After the Coppygate fiasco, our ability to keep adding amazing depth to our system is going to be severely limited anyway.

Put a team together for the next 5 years that gives you a legitimate shot, and see how things shake out - all the other teams are going to have to make painful adjustments as well. This season is the Gnats' last shot with Harper, and we could be in a position to step right into their spot really quickly IF Albies and Acuna are what we think they are.

You might be right. Going for it in a limited way may work, given enough luck. IF Liberty were inclined to invest in the product and raise the payroll to where the Braves were top 10 payroll in baseball, where there is no doubt they should be, then I might be won over on the argument that going forward is the way to go, even though there are no guarantees that the added payroll would be spent wisely or the team would avoid bad luck.

My concern is that the Braves rebuild into baseball purgatory - not really good enough to win anything, not bad enough that it's obviously not working. This type team generally keeps enough fans coming based on the hope that a Leprechaun will ride in on a Unicorn and lead everyone to his pot o gold. But, it's fools gold. Baltimore, Toronto, Pittsburgh, Tampa, Seattle are all examples of teams built to be just good enough to not really win.

"Respectability" has never been a goal that I thought worthwhile.

But it may not matter anyway since Liberty may only be concerned with getting the team back on the right side of the profit/loss statement.

 

[clvclv]

You might be right. Going for it in a limited way may work, given enough luck. IF Liberty were inclined to invest in the product and raise the payroll to where the Braves were top 10 payroll in baseball, where there is no doubt they should be, then I might be won over on the argument that going forward is the way to go, even though there are no guarantees that the added payroll would be spent wisely or the team would avoid bad luck.

My concern is that the Braves rebuild into baseball purgatory - not really good enough to win anything, not bad enough that it's obviously not working. This type team generally keeps enough fans coming based on the hope that a Leprechaun will ride in on a Unicorn and lead everyone to his pot o gold. But, it's fools gold. Baltimore, Toronto, Pittsburgh, Tampa, Seattle are all examples of teams built to be just good enough to not really win.

"Respectability" has never been a goal that I thought worthwhile.

But it may not matter anyway since Liberty may only be concerned with getting the team back on the right side of the profit/loss statement.

That's really the main reason I'm so impatient. Even when you understand the numbers as well as some of you guys do, luck and health are still always going to be huge factors IMO. Houston held out and held out, but eventually realized how good a shot they had and finally broke down and went out and got Verlander - and then had their parade. Theo and Jed broke down and went out and got Chapman and had theirs too.

It's way outside the box (from a rebuilding standpoint), but we really don't have many places we NEED to spend bags of money other than 3B over the next 5 years. We all can be wrong, but I'm sold on Freeman, Ender, Albies, Acuna, and even Swanson's ability to at least be solid enough to not kill you. Add Moustakas - even as a 25/80 guy rather than who he was in 2017 - and you've covered 2/3 of your offense with Markakis and Kemp coming off the books to give you money to invest in even an "average" LF (if Riley doesn't work out and/or is traded). If you somehow landed that inexpensive TOR guy to pair with Gohara (who I'm also sold on) you're still going to have a solid #3 in Newcomb or Wright with the other as your #4, and Julio as (at the very least) an inexpensive mid-rotation piece as well. You want a dominant pen without spending money? Convert Folty and Touki to go with Minter and you don't need to spend much money there.

If you add that "Ace" to go with Gohara without blowing the budget, go ahead and use Fried, Soroka, Allard, Anderson, Riley, Wentz, Pache, Jackson and whomever else someone's interested in to get SOLID major league players to fill the holes and take your shot for 5 years.

 

[Southcack77]

The Braves kept Dale Murphy because he was the face of the franchise and one of the best players in baseball. He was headed for the Hall right until the moment when he suddenly lost it. He lost it well before anyone would have imagined.

 

[Southcack77]

Cox had a tendency to bring in washed up vets, just to round out the roster. It's understood that JS is the favorite whipping boy around here, but Cox could never have helped turn the team into championship caliber as GM. The Pendleton, Bream and Belliard signings, plus Otix Nixon trade. Improved professionalism, leadership and defense (OK, Otis may not have helped with some of that!). The Crime Dog trade was brilliant, but how could anyone forget Marqis Grissom? The Maddux free agent signing? Et al.

The ability of people to completely discount any amount of accomplishment just because of their feels never ceases to amaze me.

JS did something no one had ever done primarily because he was able to work rosters long after the primes of the the centerpieces of initial run were long gone. Anyone that can't step back and acknowledge that he did a good job isn't really someone whose opinion ought to ever be considered seriously.

 

[rico43]

The Braves kept Dale Murphy because he was the face of the franchise and one of the best players in baseball. He was headed for the Hall right until the moment when he suddenly lost it. He lost it well before anyone would have imagined.

The trade they turned down with the Mets (HoJo, Dykstra, McDowell) is almost a thing of legend now. It would have jump-started the prosperity era by at least two seasons.

 

[Enscheff]

The Braves kept Dale Murphy because he was the face of the franchise and one of the best players in baseball. He was headed for the Hall right until the moment when he suddenly lost it. He lost it well before anyone would have imagined.

If only someone told them players decline in their 30s...

Good thing they learned that lesson and stopped keeping "face of the franchise players" through rebuilds and completely wasting their value.

Oh wait...they haven't. Never mind.

Braves Way...or something...

 

[Knucksie]

The trade they turned down with the Mets (HoJo, Dykstra, McDowell) is almost a thing of legend now. It would have jump-started the prosperity era by at least two seasons.

It was Aguilera not McDowell. That would have addressed 3 definite needs, as said before: CF, 3B and closer. However, the Padres offer might have helped more in the long run with the career that Roberto Alomar had.

 

[Knucksie]

The ability of people to completely discount any amount of accomplishment just because of their feels never ceases to amaze me.

JS did something no one had ever done primarily because he was able to work rosters long after the primes of the the centerpieces of initial run were long gone. Anyone that can't step back and acknowledge that he did a good job isn't really someone whose opinion ought to ever be considered seriously.

Some of them begrudgingly admitted it. It was me who posted that an executive with world championships in both leagues is guaranteed a plaque in Cooperstown. Pat Gillick did it, JS and Theo Epstein will get enshrined also Maybe somebody else did it?

 

[mfree80]

If only someone told them players decline in their 30s...

Good thing they learned that lesson and stopped keeping "face of the franchise players" through rebuilds and completely wasting their value.

Oh wait...they haven't. Never mind.

Braves Way...or something...

Since we have a completely new FO, it might be good to stop criticizing them for a while until we actually see what they are going to do????

 

[Horsehide Harry]

Since we have a completely new FO, it might be good to stop criticizing them for a while until we actually see what they are going to do????

The options of the new FO are likely much more limited than what CoppyHart had. They have been handed one oar, a bucket and a boat load of bleeding people, with the boat on fire and taking on water with a hold full of children. They can turn to shore and risk defeat, capture and torture but with some chance of survival and maybe even success. Or they could go out to sea, repair, rebuild and grow their forces and returned with the children grown and a full understanding of the battlefield but also risk complete failure and loss of most, if not all of their passengers.

 

[Southcack77]

The options of the new FO are likely much more limited than what CoppyHart had. They have been handed one oar, a bucket and a boat load of bleeding people, with the boat on fire and taking on water with a hold full of children. They can turn to shore and risk defeat, capture and torture but with some chance of survival and maybe even success. Or they could go out to sea, repair, rebuild and grow their forces and returned with the children grown and a full understanding of the battlefield but also risk complete failure and loss of most, if not all of their passengers.

They aren't inheriting a bad situation at all.

 

[50PoundHead]

It was Aguilera not McDowell. That would have addressed 3 definite needs, as said before: CF, 3B and closer. However, the Padres offer might have helped more in the long run with the career that Roberto Alomar had.

Aguilera was still viewed as primarily a starting pitcher when the deal was discussed, but West was all the rage in the scouting press at that time.

 

[Knucksie]

Aguilera was still viewed as primarily a starting pitcher when the deal was discussed, but West was all the rage in the scouting press at that time.

Correct. On the previous post indicated that the Mets may not have experimented with him in that role yet. The Twins obviously did, and Aguilera was premier. When considering what life was like before Wohlers, it would have helped a lot to have him.