Official CBA Negotiation Thread

SJ24 said:
Exactly.

Walmart employs North of 2 million people.

That's incredible. Sam Walton is more important to our way of life than any mendacious politician.

Enscheff is an absolute baseball mastermind, but his level of economic expertise (admittedly I haven't seen MUCH) definitely leans towards "****lib"
Click to expand...

Yes, let's glorify Walmart and their complete reliance on the government to subsidize the crap pay they offer employees.

Again, whoever brainwashed people into advocating against their own best interests are the true geniuses of the world.
 
Enscheff said:
Yes, let's glorify Walmart and their complete reliance on the government to subsidize the crap pay they offer employees.

Again, whoever brainwashed people into advocating against their own best interests are the true geniuses of the world.
Click to expand...

I'm not going to go all in to shill for any corporation or labor union, but I do have a few questions since you're apparently all in on the labor side.

What do you consider a fair net profit percentage for a corporation?

What do you consider a fair rate of pay for a C-level executive?

What do you consider a fair hourly wage for unskilled workers, relative to the cost of living in their area?
 
jpx7 said:
Except the Government Accountability Office released a study confirming what I said, contra your decades-old anecdotal narrative.

A libertarian like sturg would say that such governmental benefits actually allow Walmart to pay people so poorly; if there weren't safety nets to pick up their slack, the market would force them to pay fair wages to cover what the government currently covers. I personally don't believe that—I think a corporate behemoth like Walmart is always going to **** over their labor pool, and so it as absolutely-hard as they can—but there's at least merit to the sturg-style argument I'm outlining.

But do you know what you need to counterbalance avaricious ownership, absent strong state-level controls and governmental safety-nets? A strident union to collectively bargain for workers. Which is exactly what MLBPA is doing for its membership—and what we should want all unions to do for their membership. Hate governmental "overreach"? Then you should love strong unions, because they're the market-based solution to excessive and exploitative corporatism.
Click to expand...

Forget the unions. Just break up the largest companies in the world and allow multiple players into the market. Without the grand economies of scales from places like Walmart the workers would end up benefiting.
 
DirkPiggler said:
I'm not going to go all in to shill for any corporation or labor union, but I do have a few questions since you're apparently all in on the labor side.

What do you consider a fair net profit percentage for a corporation?

What do you consider a fair rate of pay for a C-level executive?

What do you consider a fair hourly wage for unskilled workers, relative to the cost of living in their area?
Click to expand...

These are all fair questions that I don't have an answer to because I am not an expert.

What I do know is no employee of any organization is 250x as valuable as the average employee, and the only reason they are paid at those levels is because the folks in charge of pay are the same ones getting that compensation.

I'm sure the next response will be some uber-capitalist talking point blabber about market rates for talent, paying for stock performance, etc etc. To me those aren't justifications, those are the root of the problem. So don't bother...I'm well aware of why some folks feel that type of wealth is justified.

The economy should not exist to make the top filthy rich...they simply aren't that valuable to the world. Nobody is. Nobody is so talented and special and critical that they should have the wealth these ultra rich people do, and the only reason they are allowed to hoard so much wealth is because they have somehow pulled the wool over peoples' eyes who look up to them as heroes.

They are not heroes. They are greedy humans who crave the same power humans have always craved, and they are allowed to hoard it...until they aren't.
 
Last edited:
So all good points from both sides on should we be more like Denmark or more like the US as it was drawn up in the constitution.
Now back to something more important - the CBA!
Does anyone have a guess as to how long this damn thing will drag out ?
And who will crack first ? Or are we heading for a massive strike and no season?
 
cajunrevenge said:
Maybe I am alone but I think CEOs are worth the money they are paid.
Click to expand...

People that don’t think they are worth it most likely have never known one in real life and understood the scope of work they deal with on a day to day basis.
 
Metaphysicist said:
Would love to see that budget.
Click to expand...

Just take a look at what WMT stock did from the 70s to the 90s. Then figure in that the company added 15% to every employee stock purchase. It's not hard to figure out.

Cost of living in Arkansas isn't nearly what it is in other places, and really wasn't back then. Even today, people who earn in the $15/hr range can accumulate savings if they live modestly and avoid destructive habits. I have a couple of guys working for me earning $18-$19/hr that will probably be able to retire before I do. I also have a few earning a lot more than that who will die in debt.

If you are ever on the campus of the University of Arkansas, notice the names on most of the facilities (excluding the football stadium and basketball arena). Most of those people started early with Walmart, many as stockers and cashiers, although most of them advanced into either store management or the home office. And obviously the basketball arena is named for the brother of the founder of WMT, but I don't count him as someone who started from the bottom for obvious reasons.

I was scratching a broke ass, barely able to pay rent back then, yet in a year and a half I accumulated about $3K worth of stock. After rolling it over at my next job that was seed money for the down payment on my first house a few years later. Never earned above $6.25 while working at Walmart (minimum was $4.25).
 
DirkPiggler said:
Just take a look at what WMT stock did from the 70s to the 90s. Then figure in that the company added 15% to every employee stock purchase. It's not hard to figure out.

Cost of living in Arkansas isn't nearly what it is in other places, and really wasn't back then. Even today, people who earn in the $15/hr range can accumulate savings if they live modestly and avoid destructive habits. I have a couple of guys working for me earning $18-$19/hr that will probably be able to retire before I do. I also have a few earning a lot more than that who will die in debt.

If you are ever on the campus of the University of Arkansas, notice the names on most of the facilities (excluding the football stadium and basketball arena). Most of those people started early with Walmart, many as stockers and cashiers, although most of them advanced into either store management or the home office. And obviously the basketball arena is named for the brother of the founder of WMT, but I don't count him as someone who started from the bottom for obvious reasons.

I was scratching a broke ass, barely able to pay rent back then, yet in a year and a half I accumulated about $3K worth of stock. After rolling it over at my next job that was seed money for the down payment on my first house a few years later. Never earned above $6.25 while working at Walmart (minimum was $4.25).
Click to expand...

This goes with my point. People think having more money solves more problems. But unfortunately that is not the case. learning how to use your money and taking advantage of what more money provides you is more important. I know a lot of folks making great money who have declared bankruptcy or who are scraping by due to excess spending. They are going to spend everything they make regardless if they make 15/hr or 250K per year. They never learned or taught how to make your money work for you.
 
thethe said:
People that don’t think they are worth it most likely have never known one in real life and understood the scope of work they deal with on a day to day basis.
Click to expand...

As an executive myself (and part owner of a global company), I actually agree with Ensheff's post. I am not 250x more valuable than my lower level employees; in fact, those employees are far more the life blood of the revenue engine than I or any one else in the C-suite is.

Which is why we are of the same mindset of the Dan Price(s) of the world and actually compensate our employees - bottom up - much higher than market. But even with that- there is still a wide discrepancy between what they may receive and what I do year to year.
 
ramadon101 said:
As an executive myself (and part owner of a global company), I actually agree with Ensheff's post. I am not 250x more valuable than my lower level employees; in fact, those employees are far more the life blood of the revenue engine than I or any one else in the C-suite is.

Which is why we are of the same mindset of the Dan Price(s) of the world and actually compensate our employees - bottom up - much higher than market. But even with that- there is still a wide discrepancy between what they may receive and what I do year to year.
Click to expand...

One is fungible with millions of people while the other is by a much smaller subset.

One is literally working/available 24/7 while the other is 9-5.

You can argue how much that discrepancy should be but it should be vast. There have been many C-Suite employees that have made wrong decisions that have caused a company to crumble. A line worker can mess up every second of the day and it wouldn't impact a company all that much.
 
Enscheff said:
These are all fair questions that I don't have an answer to because I am not an expert.

What I do know is no employee of any organization is 250x as valuable as the average employee, and the only reason they are paid at those levels is because the folks in charge of pay are the same ones getting that compensation.

I'm sure the next response will be some uber-capitalist talking point blabber about market rates for talent, paying for stock performance, etc etc. To me those aren't justifications, those are the root of the problem. So don't bother...I'm well aware of why some folks feel that type of wealth is justified.

The economy should not exist to make the top filthy rich...they simply aren't that valuable to the world. Nobody is. Nobody is so talented and special and critical that they should have the wealth these ultra rich people do, and the only reason they are allowed to hoard so much wealth is because they have somehow pulled the wool over peoples' eyes who look up to them as heroes.

They are not heroes. They are greedy humans who crave the same power humans have always craved, and they are allowed to hoard it...until they aren't.
Click to expand...

This is a very common viewpoint among highly educated ivory tower types. They make good money but aren't "rich" so they are envious of those that are.

I would say you earn $90-100K per annum doing your software engineering job. I may be lowballing that number. Which is insanely good relative to anywhere else in the world. You are wealthy.

The invisible hand determines CEOs are as wealthy as they are. There is no equation or WAR or anything like that to determine it. And I know that probably drives you bonkers.

Nobody is "pulling wool" over anyone's eyes.

They also don't "hoard" wealth, either. Their money is either A) tied up in stocks B) in a bank earning interest and helping the bank finance others

This idea that rich people are lounging around like Scrooge McDuck with a vault of gold is nonsense.

And I realize you aren't going to change your mind. I think most people either get Econ or they don't. There's no arguing that's going to change their mind on a topic of this magnitude.
 
Anyone who associates wealth inequality with anything other than the actions of the federal reserves is uninformed on the topic and can safely be ignored

Anyone who doesn't think a CEO is critical, and can be worth millions or billions in company performance is uninformed on the topic and can be safely ignored

Anyone who equates the CEO with a cashier is uniformed on the topic and can be safely ignored

Anyone who arbitrarily determines that someone has "too much" wealth is uniformed and can be safely ignored.

The reality is... Jeff Bezos' company changed the world to such a degree (mores with AWS than Amazon) that I'm a little surprised he doesn't have more wealth
 
Last edited:
ramadon101 said:
As an executive myself (and part owner of a global company), I actually agree with Ensheff's post. I am not 250x more valuable than my lower level employees; in fact, those employees are far more the life blood of the revenue engine than I or any one else in the C-suite is.

Which is why we are of the same mindset of the Dan Price(s) of the world and actually compensate our employees - bottom up - much higher than market. But even with that- there is still a wide discrepancy between what they may receive and what I do year to year.
Click to expand...

If you don't take care of the people working for you, they won't take care of you. It's really that simple.

Note that taking care of them doesn't necessarily always equate to a higher salary or hourly rate, although that has to be enough for them to meet their financial needs. Money usually rates well down the list of factors that correlate the most with job satisfaction.

Do I think I deserve to earn more than they do? Without question. I take risks that they will never have to face. I do things that they cannot do. While they are responsible for their only families' welfare, I am essentially responsible for 75 families well-being, including my own. Your company is undoubtedly the same. But if I had treated my staff as fungible, highly replaceable parts I would be nowhere near where I am today.

Perhaps the biggest problem with large corporations is that their management is so far detached from the front lines that they cannot relate to the issues those workers face, or understand their relative importance to the company's success.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top