yeezus
It's OVER 5,000!
Can you give me the quotes on this? I feel like too many posters here ran with that more than was intended.
Rosenthal: Fredi will be fired, possibly by end of the road trip
- Thread starter dak
- Start date
Can you give me the quotes on this? I feel like too many posters here ran with that more than was intended.
Dalyn
Fredi Gonzalez Supporter
I will in the somewhat near future if no one else does. Right now life is a little crazy, and I don't have the time to do more than a few minutes here and there.
Russ2dollas
10 yr, $185 million Extension
I don't have the quote but I recall them saying they wanted to compete in the new park.
Now compete could mean a lot of things. I think we could be a team that is above 500 and flirt with the WC for a while next year if they bring up everyone.
Cf-Inciarte
RF-Markakis
LF-Adonis
1B-FF
2B-Swanson/Albies
SS-Swanson/Albies
3B-Ruiz
C-Flowers
P: Tehran, Wisler, Blair + 2 of Folty/Simms/Jenkins/Gant
That team isn't winning anything, but it's better than last year's team that was around 500 for a long time. If you don't dismantle it late, then maybe you can be a 83 win team or so.
striker42
Well-known member
That article puts too much emphasis on the major league team this year in questioning talent evaluators. There are really only two players who you look at and say we got it wrong.
Markakis, Flowers, and Garcia are producing fairly well. Inciarte looked terrific before getting hurt. Freddie is going to hit like Freddie eventually assuming he's healthy. Jace is being groomed for a utility role and he and Castro are just keeping second warm for Swanson/Albies. AJ is a backup catcher (if Fredi would stop playing him all the time). Frenchy has been a nice addition against lefties. Wisler is continuing to progress. Chacin has been an excellent addition. Teheran has been Teheran of recent years.
So it's not like we've been wildly inaccurate with our evaluations.
Bud Norris has been bad and it looks like he's lost his rotation spot. But, that was a risky signing and we knew it. We signed him hoping he had something left in the tank. If he did we could flip him for something at the deadline. If not then it's just a one year deal in a year we're not competing. So I don't consider his failure to be a bad evaluation.
The two players that really stand out with us having swung and missed on are Aybar and Olivera. Aybar has been one of the worst hitters in the game. It's kind of surprising he's gone downhill that fast. Olivera is a guy who still makes no sense to me. I've gone on at length about him in other threads so I'll refrain from that here.
But at least you can say one thing in the Braves favor about Aybar and Olivera, they weren't the only ones who got it wrong. The Braves got calls about Aybar after getting him. So other teams didn't expect this either. The feeding frenzy over Olivera was well documented.
So I think too much is being made over the failures of the major league team in terms of talent evaluation.
As for the minors, Rosenthal doesn't grasp that our targeting high upside guys with higher risk was intentional. Teams are reluctant to part with big talent, sure thing prospects. You have to settle for either guys with lower ceilings or guys with higher risk. We went for guys with higher risk.
The idea is that if you get enough high risk/high reward guys together, you'll get some that will hit. I'm sure the front office fully expects the majority of the big arms we dealt for to bust out. But the group of Folty, Newcomb, Touki, Fried, etc should produce a gem or two that will make it worthwhile.
Markakis, Flowers, and Garcia are producing fairly well. Inciarte looked terrific before getting hurt. Freddie is going to hit like Freddie eventually assuming he's healthy. Jace is being groomed for a utility role and he and Castro are just keeping second warm for Swanson/Albies. AJ is a backup catcher (if Fredi would stop playing him all the time). Frenchy has been a nice addition against lefties. Wisler is continuing to progress. Chacin has been an excellent addition. Teheran has been Teheran of recent years.
So it's not like we've been wildly inaccurate with our evaluations.
Bud Norris has been bad and it looks like he's lost his rotation spot. But, that was a risky signing and we knew it. We signed him hoping he had something left in the tank. If he did we could flip him for something at the deadline. If not then it's just a one year deal in a year we're not competing. So I don't consider his failure to be a bad evaluation.
The two players that really stand out with us having swung and missed on are Aybar and Olivera. Aybar has been one of the worst hitters in the game. It's kind of surprising he's gone downhill that fast. Olivera is a guy who still makes no sense to me. I've gone on at length about him in other threads so I'll refrain from that here.
But at least you can say one thing in the Braves favor about Aybar and Olivera, they weren't the only ones who got it wrong. The Braves got calls about Aybar after getting him. So other teams didn't expect this either. The feeding frenzy over Olivera was well documented.
So I think too much is being made over the failures of the major league team in terms of talent evaluation.
As for the minors, Rosenthal doesn't grasp that our targeting high upside guys with higher risk was intentional. Teams are reluctant to part with big talent, sure thing prospects. You have to settle for either guys with lower ceilings or guys with higher risk. We went for guys with higher risk.
The idea is that if you get enough high risk/high reward guys together, you'll get some that will hit. I'm sure the front office fully expects the majority of the big arms we dealt for to bust out. But the group of Folty, Newcomb, Touki, Fried, etc should produce a gem or two that will make it worthwhile.
Russ2dollas
10 yr, $185 million Extension
The rebuild is far from complete.
If people are talking about winning playoff series than we likely need to land 1 of the premium FA for the 2018 class and that guy needs to stay healthy and stay a premium player.
Even if Albies and Swanson are what the top projections are. And if Inciarte really can hit. And if FF becomes himself. And we can find a good staff from all of our pitchers....IMO for us to be a legit playoff team we need a legit RH bat at corner OF, 3B, or C. I just don't see that guy in the organization now.
striker42
Well-known member
I don't know if that guy is in the organization right now. But I think he will be at some point this summer. Between the number 3 pick and international signings, we'll see our position player talent explode.
I think we'll be a better team next year. We wont compete but .500 isn't out of the question. Give it until 2018 for the young talent to get here and get adjusted and things will start to pick up.
Russ2dollas
10 yr, $185 million Extension
Giving up on Simmons means Newcombe has to be good. I get that from KR. In reality Coppy probably saw Swanson and Albies as our guys and thought that Swanson or Albies at SS + Newcombe was a better 2017 forward combo than Simmons alone. Or Even Swanson at 3B with Simmons. I think a lot of ppl would disagree, but it seems clear to me the Simmons move was made knowing Swanson was coming back. I still think we should have had more come back for Simmons.
KR has a throw away sentence or two about prospects not being linear. Simms last year was getting Touki and Newcombe reviews. Lots of big lefties struggle with command and control early.
They goofed big time on Olivera and almost everyone knew it from the jump.
Aybar has done the new Brave dive. The BJ Upton belly flop. He's on a one year deal.
IMO we are 50/50 on our scrap heap starters. That's a decent return.
Russ2dollas
10 yr, $185 million Extension
I love the international market...but even if they are super advanced like Albies they are 4-5 years away. A lot of those guys are 16.
I don't see a college bat in the draft that comes in and is a 2+ WAR player by 18.
I don't think Ruiz is that good. Mallex still looks like a good 4th OF to me.
I just think we'll need a Donaldson or Machado signing to get there. And I think at least 1 will sign and extension.
IMO our best bet is for Donaldson or Machado to have a Heyward situation and get traded to us next year.
Russ2dollas
10 yr, $185 million Extension
I tend to agree. But there is no franchise tag. So they may not have a choice.
It was a collective effort by the beat writers and front office to make people think we would be competitive in 2017 because it would be the first year of Suntrust Park.
I don't think the Braves will ever be in a position to sign a truly premium FA. Even with the revenue from the new park, I seriously doubt they will start handing out $200M+ contracts. They will most likely live in the Markakis-level of FAs...namely average or better MLB players with no draft pick compensation attached to them that will sign for 4-5 years or less.
There are a few guys that fit that bill this upcoming offseason at C and 3B...Cervelli, Freese and Prado.
Fixing the OF with an impact bat could be done by trading for Braun.
By the middle of next year the lineup could potentially be:
C - Cervelli
1B - Freeman
2B - Albies
3B - Freese/Prado
SS - Swanson
LF - Braun
CF - Inciarte
RF - Markakis
If Teheran finds consistency, Wisler and Blair settle in as MOR guys, someone like Sims steps into the rotation, and a solid MOR guy in the Lackey mold is signed to a 2-3 year deal, that is a .500+ team that could make some noise in the WC standings.
There are a few guys that fit that bill this upcoming offseason at C and 3B...Cervelli, Freese and Prado.
Fixing the OF with an impact bat could be done by trading for Braun.
By the middle of next year the lineup could potentially be:
C - Cervelli
1B - Freeman
2B - Albies
3B - Freese/Prado
SS - Swanson
LF - Braun
CF - Inciarte
RF - Markakis
If Teheran finds consistency, Wisler and Blair settle in as MOR guys, someone like Sims steps into the rotation, and a solid MOR guy in the Lackey mold is signed to a 2-3 year deal, that is a .500+ team that could make some noise in the WC standings.
Most of the top guys in that 2018 market won't actually hit FA.
chipchildress
Awaiting a Promotion
you're overthinking it all. if the pitching is legit and starts to show in the next few years, the rest of those holes will fill themselves. there are already several position pieces in place. maybe 2019 is a more realistic target, but with another draft, supposedly money to spend and years of development and other additions from likely trades, anything can happen. it all hinges on wisler, julio, newcombe, folty, blair, and sims pitching like big boys though.
Russ2dollas
10 yr, $185 million Extension
I know it's a new FO from the Mac deal....but are we going to sign a 30 yo catcher long term?
yeezus
It's OVER 5,000!
Well, he doesn't really have the wear and tear of a 30 yo catcher...and at 4-5 years, I'd be down. Certainly no longer than 5. And the price has to be right, of course.
Probably not, but I don't consider a 3-4 year deal to be long term. At the very worst he starts for 2-3 more years then transitions to a backup the last year or so.
And Mac signed for 5/85, which is about half of what Cervelli will command.
VirginiaBrave
Well-known member
Another pos article!!! I am surprised at Ken. Nobody not even the front office expected to compete this year. Maybe if they had kept Simmons and Miller and signed an Upton or someone like that then maybe things are different. My guess is Fredi lasts the year. This is just a team living up to expectation not a disaster at all.