Second ('Third') Trump Presidency Thread

[mqt]

Build Back Better and other policy measures undertaken by the Biden administration were carefully calibrated to try to help these very groups. Those disadvantaged by globalization and skill-biased technological change. Your contention does not square with reality. What the Democrats were not willing to do was to scapegoat certain groups like trans people and immigrants. That proved to be a far more effective way to win over those voters.

What you’re describing is policy, not messaging. It is not my belief that Dems must win the culture war to win elections, nor is it that they must abandon marginalized groups to do so. My main contention is that you can win with a majority of voters who disagree with you on social issues if you just learn how to talk to them about how you might be able to help them.

Republicans are in the middle of their own self-implosion on this same front. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, MAGA has drastically overestimated their relative strength of certain aspects of the culture war and have subsequently overplayed their hand in that regard. People will get on board with keeping biological males out of women’s sports and other divides between the left and the right, but people are not largely hateful. The casual cruelty the current Administration and their friends in Congress are employing on immigration and gender will backfire, just as calling voters with little exposure to other cultures in their daily lives racist or homophobic backfired on the Dems.

 

[nsacpi]

If you’re being told you’re a bigot for believing what you’re being told to believe, you’re not going to embrace the new message.

Many of them are. Let's not tiptoe around that. The demonization of trans people and dark-skinned immigrants is a highly effective way of getting their vote.

 

[chop2chip]

So what you’re saying is this identity is actually more of a spectrum? Believe it or not, I have some thoughts on that!

While I agree identity can be a spectrum

In this case, being a member of capital L Libertarians is a binary thang

 

[chop2chip]

I think they are being cute about small l versus capital L (as in member of the party). s(l)imy

You’re welcome to take poli-sci 101 courses at the university you teach at if you would like to learn more about political parties vs ideologies.

My father in law was a professor. One of the perks of his job was they let him enroll in any course for free.

 

[mqt]

Many of them are.

I also accept this is accurate, but I don’t think the number is as high as many on the left might believe, and I think we need to do a better job of differentiating between actual bigotry and ignorance/disagreement.

For instance, I can see plenty to criticize Mamdani for, but I also won’t hesitate to call out when someone is just being a bigoted piece of shit like Laura Loomer or a disturbing amount of House Representatives.

 

[Tapate50]

Many of them are. Let's not tiptoe around that. The demonization of trans people and dark-skinned immigrants is a highly effective way of getting their vote.

So is seeing on the news they raped and killed some little girls while being here illegally and Biden admin being willfully neglectful on the matter

 

[mqt]

Many of them are. Let's not tiptoe around that. The demonization of trans people and dark-skinned immigrants is a highly effective way of getting their vote.

I’m also not tiptoeing around this any more than one might tiptoe around the objective fact that certain demographics commit certain crimes at a higher rate than others. What I’m suggesting is that likewise the causes might be more systemic and that we should look less at blaming the person who takes the bait and more at those setting it.

 

[nsacpi]

I’m also not tiptoeing around this any more than one might tiptoe around the objective fact that certain demographics commit certain crimes at a higher rate than others. What I’m suggesting is that likewise the causes might be more systemic and that we should look less at blaming the person who takes the bait and more at those setting it.

see post just above you for an example...using a heinous crime committed by one immigrant to demonize an entire group (that's bigotry not ignorance)...the bigots be well-represented on these boards...the Trump campaign found gold in demonizing trans people and immigrants...it wasn't some tiny slice of the electorate...with the rest being "ignorant"...it is bigotry not ignorance...we should call it by its name...and I'm ok with the Dems not having a strategy for reaching those voters

 

[mqt]

see post just above you for an example...using a heinous crime committed by one immigrant to demonize an entire group...the bigots be well-represented on these boards...the Trump campaign found gold in demonizing trans people and immigrants...it wasn't some tiny slice of the electorate...with the rest being "ignorant"...it is bigotry not ignorance...we should call it by its name...and I'm ok with the Dems not having a strategy for reaching those voters

I was actually quoting his post already when I saw this, but I see it more as Exhibit A for my point. You and I are genuinely aligned on the fact that it is not moral or just to blame all members of a group for the actions of bad actors within that group. But I struggle to not see some of that behavior within the context of their lived experience. If you live in rural America, your only consistent exposure to any non-white person might be on the news. I’m all for personal accountability and I don’t excuse racism or bigotry outright, but when a near-majority of US Senators are responding to violations of due process for immigrants by asking if a murder victim had due process, there comes a point where I question where we place the majority of the blame when someone blames illegals for doing crime.

 

[nsacpi]

If someone thinks a particular immigrant committing a crime makes it ok to demonize an entire group we should call it for what it is and not worry too much about the social milieu within which that person was socialized

 

[mqt]

If someone thinks a particular immigrant committing a crime makes it ok to demonize an entire group we should call it for what it is and not worry too much about the social milieu within which that person was socialized

I don’t think it wrong to call it what it is, but where exactly do we go from there? Just cast out anybody who thinks that way forever and perpetuate the cycle? We take cues on what is socially acceptable from the power structures in place, and many of the structures with the most influence in our society are sharing that message openly to win votes through fear and anger toward others. I don’t think someone falling victim to that approach is entirely their fault.

 

[nsacpi]

I don’t think it wrong to call it what it is, but where exactly do we go from there? Just cast out anybody who thinks that way forever and perpetuate the cycle? We take cues on what is socially acceptable from the power structures in place, and many of the structures with the most influence in our society are sharing that message openly to win votes through fear and anger toward others. I don’t think someone falling victim to that approach is entirely their fault.

I don't know where we go from there. But I do know what we should not be worrying too much about. Which is the Dems not trying hard enough to reach those voters. I say leave em.

 

[mqt]

I don't know where we go from there. But I do know what we should not be worrying too much about. Which is the Dems not trying hard enough to reach those voters. I say leave em.

I have no doubt the Dems are trying really, really hard to reach these voters. My worry isn’t with their effort, it’s with their efficacy. As someone who would not like to see the Donald Trumps of the world continue to rule over us, I think having a real think about how to change that trend is actually an immensely useful exercise.

 

[nsacpi]

Here is an efficacious idea. Find some marginalized unpopular group and demonize them. It's a proven success when it comes to reaching those voters.

 

[sturg33]

Its not possible to judge every person by their individual characteristics when thinking about a scalable immigration policy.

Using data to make informed decisions is the right thing to do. But our academic says we must import Hati bc there actually is a Hatian who doesnt have a sub 80 IQ and wouldn't commit a violent crime with 3 months of being here

 

[mqt]

Here is an efficacious idea. Find some marginalized unpopular group and demonize them. It's a proven success when it comes to reaching those voters.

I respect it’s easier for me to not resort to cynicism when I don’t belong to a group being demonized, but I find this needlessly dismissive. If one believes that it is necessary both to reduce the demonization of marginalized groups *and* have electoral success, I find it to be of the utmost importance to develop a more effective approach to reaching voters that don’t presently agree with us on a host of topics.

I don’t think generalizing entire groups based on the actions of some is some inherent trait of the rural American, it’s a learned one. Participating in the same behavior toward that group isn’t going to lead to electoral success. If I don’t believe there are compelling arguments for my worldview that I could explain to others that might currently hold an opposite view, why do I hold them? So no, I don’t think it prudent to cast aside everybody on the other side as some irredeemable bigot.

 

[sturg33]

Here's an efficacious idea. We could remove 88% of crime by simply removing people who have been convicted of 3 or more crimes.

Don't need to even make any racial judgements there. Lock up the animals and throw away the key. Society could have peace

 

[nsacpi]

eh...i didn't say everybody i disagree with in an reedeemable bigot...but some certainly are

 

[mqt]

Its not possible to judge every person by their individual characteristics when thinking about a scalable immigration policy.

Using data to make informed decisions is the right thing to do. But our academic says we must import Hati bc there actually is a Hatian who doesnt have a sub 80 IQ and wouldn't commit a violent crime with 3 months of being here

But there’s nothing genetically relevant that drives an individual Haitian person toward criminality, just as there’s nothing inherently driving an individual in American from being hateful toward Haitians. We are all ultimately products of the environment in which we are raised. A big part of my view on immigration and foreign policy centers around rejecting the premise that Americans *deserve* a quality of life that a Haitian does not simply because we won the cosmic lottery that birthed us into the country that won the weapons/natural resources race 200 years ago. As such, I aim for public policies that take steps to lift up as many others as possible, regardless of their place of birth.

 

[mqt]

eh...i didn't say everybody i disagree with in an reedeemable bigot...but some certainly are

I’m not accusing you of such, but I do think you’re somewhat guilty of falling into the same logic trap you’re blaming others of being stuck in already.