Second ('Third') Trump Presidency Thread

btw...to indulge in some not-so-hateful stereotyping...Haitians are among the most energetic, hard-working, entrepreneurial and upwardly mobile immigrant groups we have in this country...it is not surprising that sturg would target the wrong group with his ignorant assertions that they lack intelligence...i have some familiarity with one of the oldest Haitian immigrant communities...in the Boston area...they have been here for over 40 years now and done very well

plus of course Pope Leo XIV's maternal grandfather was born in Haiti
 
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I didn't vilify West Virginians...i simply accurately described their lack of progress in spite of many generations in this country with all of the opportunities and advantages that come with that
I guess I just don’t see how we can agree that West Virginia and Haiti share some of the same societal attributes but then differ so greatly on whether or not that should be taken into account when discussing the shortcomings of voters in West Virginia. It’s the same argument at the end of the day: leave them behind to figure it out on their own because we know better.
 
I guess I just don’t see how we can agree that West Virginia and Haiti share some of the same societal attributes but then differ so greatly on whether or not that should be taken into account when discussing the shortcomings of voters in West Virginia. It’s the same argument at the end of the day: leave them behind to figure it out on their own because we know better.
I don't think there can be any dispute that Haitian immigrants have done more in their limited time taking advantage of the opportunities this great country provides

if there is only room in this country for one group, I'd send the West Virginians to Gitmo
 
btw...to indulge in some not-so-hateful stereotyping...Haitians are among the most energetic, hard-working, entrepreneurial and upwardly mobile immigrant groups we have in this country...it is not surprising that sturg would target the wrong group with his ignorant assertions that they lack intelligence...i have some familiarity with one of the oldest Haitian immigrant communities...in the Boston area...they have been here for over 40 years now and done very well
One thing I think immigration hardliners fail to recognize sometimes is how hard it can be to come to America, even (and oftentimes especially) illegally. The hardships endured and overcome by many of the migrants people unfairly demonize as lazy freeloaders both before and after their arrival in the country would have broken me.
 
But there’s nothing genetically relevant that drives an individual Haitian person toward criminality, just as there’s nothing inherently driving an individual in American from being hateful toward Haitians. We are all ultimately products of the environment in which we are raised. A big part of my view on immigration and foreign policy centers around rejecting the premise that Americans *deserve* a quality of life that a Haitian does not simply because we won the cosmic lottery that birthed us into the country that won the weapons/natural resources race 200 years ago. As such, I aim for public policies that take steps to lift up as many others as possible, regardless of their place of birth.
Trans people weren’t a thing when most were raised unless you are 25.

Most people are a product of their lived experiences.

Doesn’t have anything to do with raising
 
One thing I think immigration hardliners fail to recognize sometimes is how hard it can be to come to America, even (and oftentimes especially) illegally. The hardships endured and overcome by many of the migrants people unfairly demonize as lazy freeloaders both before and after their arrival in the country would have broken me.
It is very hard. And they put all of it into their children. Which is why children of immigrants are so amazingly upwardly mobile and successful. Their parents make enormous sacrifices coming here. And we should be grateful.
 
One thing I think immigration hardliners fail to recognize sometimes is how hard it can be to come to America, even (and oftentimes especially) illegally. The hardships endured and overcome by many of the migrants people unfairly demonize as lazy freeloaders both before and after their arrival in the country would have broken me.
No one does this. And no one thinks they are all freeloaders. What an odd view.

Not one person is saying it’s easy.

It is the law and anyone not doing it lawfully isn’t allowed to stay. It isn’t a secret and it isn’t hidden. But there is a lawful way to enter and stay and be welcomed
 
I don't think there can be any dispute that Haitian immigrants have done more in their limited time taking advantage of the opportunities this great country provides
But even the underlying truth in this I find to be inadequate. Work ethic and willingness to do what it takes to survive is also informed in no small part by that person’s environment. The worst-case stereotypical rural West Virginian that dies of an overdose after living on SNAP for their adult lives and contributes nothing productive to society had those structures in place for them to utilize and abuse that the Hatian immigrant did not. The social safety net is important, but it does not necessarily help people achieve in every respect. It can of course also help provide needed help for those who will contribute positively and is certainly better than leaving a segment of the population to die, but I think it also contributes to that particular discrepancy.
 
No one does this. And no one thinks they are all freeloaders. What an odd view.

Not one person is saying it’s easy.

It is the law and anyone not doing it lawfully isn’t allowed to stay. It isn’t a secret and it isn’t hidden. But there is a lawful way to enter and stay and be welcomed
If one believes both that there are people here that were attempting to escape unlivable conditions by coming here illegally and that they are hard workers that aren’t taking advantage of welfare to coast here, I certainly don’t understand the current political landscape. I don’t happen to think someone breaking a country’s law in an attempt to feed their family should be met with a bunch of people cheering for them to be detained in a facility surrounded by alligators. Unless you think morality is determined by a written law.
 
btw...WV has the smallest immigrant population in the country...an interesting fact

i don't think there is any doubt (it is a well-researched topic) that openness is a very good attribute to have along many dimensions
 
I sometimes see culture and western culture brought up in these discussions. It is a topic that warrants more attention.

I'll mention an important cultural change that was decisive for a particular group. Something called the Haskalah or Jewish Enlightenment.


Before the Haskalah (roughly 1770 to 1880) Jews were a lagging group. They did not produce any great scientists. Post-Haskalah there was a remarkable change. Exhibit A for the importance of culture and the possibility for transformative cultural change. It should be noted that the Haskalah left behind some parts of the Jewish community who held on to their prior culture. Remnants of this group remain, and they are a lagging group compared to more secular Jews.

The Enlightenment itself was a very important cultural change. As was the Scientific Revolution. The Scientific Revolution was in large part about culture. The key cultural change involved putting experience and the experimental method above venerated ancient texts as the preferred source of knowledge. A change in thinking that we take for granted, but was revolutionary and crucial.

There is hope for West Virginians. But they likely have to undergo some sort of Haskalah.

Interestingly, immigrant groups have little trouble picking out which parts of American culture are helpful for their advancement. Sometimes they pick up not-so-helpful parts of our culture, but that's another topic. I had some friends from India who loved it here but decided when they started a family that they didn't want their children raised here. An interesting and not unusual decision. More recently, I have become friends with an American couple that has lived in Holland for a long time. Their children were born there and consider themselves Dutch. The parents (from North Carolina) feel that it is much better to raise their children over there than here.

As an immigrant myself, I think it was a good thang to spend some of my formative years outside this country.
 
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More? From what I can see Nsacpi is implying some people are being hateful dicks, you’re implying some people are criminals that are simply too dumb to be integrated into polite society. I think you’re overplaying your hand here.

Yes more. Nsacpi has his bigotry based purely on idealogical beliefs. I have my bigotry based on real world data

The least diverse nations on earth are the safest to be a part of. The most successful countries on earth have the highest population IQ. We can choose to intentionally dilute that scale, or choose a smarter approach with how we welcome people to this country.

I'll start with a very reasonable suggestion that zero people should be allowed here if they came illegally. Those who did, should be forced to pay all taxes they have skipped on or to prison the same I way I would
 
btw...to indulge in some not-so-hateful stereotyping...Haitians are among the most energetic, hard-working, entrepreneurial and upwardly mobile immigrant groups we have in this country...it is not surprising that sturg would target the wrong group with his ignorant assertions that they lack intelligence...i have some familiarity with one of the oldest Haitian immigrant communities...in the Boston area...they have been here for over 40 years now and done very well

plus of course Pope Leo XIV's maternal grandfather was born in Haiti
That's wonderful! I'm glad there are exceptions to the general principle. But it takes a truly stupid person to allow the exception to be the norm.

In reality, Hati's crime index is the worst on the planet. Along with their economic success, and liberty. You are free to go live there if you'd like... but I'd wager if given the choice you would choose West Va
 
I guess I just don’t see how we can agree that West Virginia and Haiti share some of the same societal attributes but then differ so greatly on whether or not that should be taken into account when discussing the shortcomings of voters in West Virginia. It’s the same argument at the end of the day: leave them behind to figure it out on their own because we know better.
you have to forgive nsacpi. He is the same dude who labeled people murderers for not wearing a useless face mask. He's the same dude that said protesting for George Floyd was rational despite covid. His entire worldview is based on his political ideology. It's why he gets so many things wrong
 
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