Sherman: Braves offered Heyward 80M after 2013

yeezus said:
As I said: different era, different positions, longevity that is not comparable at the moment. ozzie's value as an out-of-this-world defensive SS is higher and clearly appreciated more. there's just too much difference to say, let's say last year's Heyward, is at Ozzie-level importance.
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I don't thing era or positions matter. 30 runs saved more then the average SS to me is the same as 30 runs saved more then the average RF. 30 runs is 30 runs regardless of where it's coming from. Now obviously SS's get a bump in WAR due to the position dificulty but that's another discussion.

Longevity is an issue when it comes to HOF voting and the like and I guess how long a player needs to play well before he's considered a superstar. I just don't get the notion that average hitters with elite defense can't be considered superstars.
 
thewupk said:
I would agree with your first part. A really good hitter with average defense is more valuable than an averge hitter with really good defense. But that doesn't really apply to Heyward and Freeman. Since Freeman is a really good hitter with below avg defense while Heyward is an average hitter with elite defense. You might consider that semantics but it does add up. Freeman has never had an overall season as good as Heywards best.
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But offensively he has, and it really depends how much you buy into defensive WAR. Is it impossible that it weighs it too heavily? I think it's really hard to watch all the games last season and say Heyward was a more valuable player for the team than Freeman. But WAR disagrees. But if the two were FAs after last season, I don't see anyway Heyward is valued more around the league.
 
thewupk said:
I don't thing era or positions matter. 30 runs saved more then the average SS to me is the same as 30 runs saved more then the average RF. 30 runs is 30 runs regardless of where it's coming from. Now obviously SS's get a bump in WAR due to the position dificulty but that's another discussion.

Longevity is an issue when it comes to HOF voting and the like and I guess how long a player needs to play well before he's considered a superstar. I just don't get the notion that average hitters with elite defense can't be considered superstars.
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Do you consider Heyward a superstar?
The average SS is better defensively than the average RF. It's also a more important position defensively.
 
Remember how it doesn't matter because he's incredibly overrated. I like Jason, I want him to be what we all expect, but he's not that right now and hasn't been for years. lol
 
thewupk said:
I would agree with your first part. A really good hitter with average defense is more valuable than an averge hitter with really good defense. But that doesn't really apply to Heyward and Freeman. Since Freeman is a really good hitter with below avg defense while Heyward is an average hitter with elite defense. You might consider that semantics but it does add up. Freeman has never had an overall season as good as Heywards best.
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Freeman doesnt have great range but everywhere else, hes fine on defense.

Throwing, fielding, digging out bad throws, etc.

He's not below average on defense.
 
Heyward said:
Freeman doesnt have great range but everywhere else, hes fine on defense.

Throwing, fielding, digging out bad throws, etc.

He's not below average on defense.
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Range is the most important thing. Anyone can catch the balls and do the routine stuff
 
yeezus said:
But offensively he has, and it really depends how much you buy into defensive WAR. Is it impossible that it weighs it too heavily? I think it's really hard to watch all the games last season and say Heyward was a more valuable player for the team than Freeman. But WAR disagrees. But if the two were FAs after last season, I don't see anyway Heyward is valued more around the league.
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It's not impossible that dWAR is valued too heavily into WAR. I just think those that automatically dismiss it because it says that Heyward was better than Freeman in 2014 are the ones being dishonest with themselves. dWAR works historically so I have no issue believing it on a year to year basis.

I think some people over value Freemans defensive value. He is really good at scooping balls in the dirt. But so are a lot of 1B and since it's not something that's really recorded I can't say for sure better he is than anyone else. What we do now is that he has crap range and not rated very well defensively.

And you may be right that Freeman would have gotten more money than Heyward on the open market if both were FA's this past offseason. But contract value doesn't always equal on the field value. I can see FO's paying more for hitting simply because hitting has been on a decline. Simple supply and demand. But that doesn't mean Heyward didn't provide more value to the Braves in 2014 than Freeman.
 
yeezus said:
Do you consider Heyward a superstar?

The average SS is better defensively than the average RF. It's also a more important position defensively.
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I would consider Heyward an all-star with the chance of being a superstar if his current production up til 2014 continues.

Overall defense? Yes SS's are better than RF's and is a more important positions. That's why they get a bump in WAR due to their position and corner outfielders get dinged heavily for it. That still doesn't change the fact that 30 runs saved more than average in right is euqal to 30 more runs saved at short. If you took 2 players that did that at both positions then the SS would have a higher dWAR due to the position. But again, runs saved are runs saved.
 
Heyward said:
Yeah you dont.

And how many 1B have elite range?
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For baseball as a whole? I would say zero. Elite range for a 1B? There are obviously several positive defenders out there. Freeman does everything well except have good range. Sadly that is the most important thing for any defender. How many balls you get to. I don't see how that's such a foreign concept.
 
thewupk said:
It's not impossible that dWAR is valued too heavily into WAR. I just think those that automatically dismiss it because it says that Heyward was better than Freeman in 2014 are the ones being dishonest with themselves. dWAR works historically so I have no issue believing it on a year to year basis.

I think some people over value Freemans defensive value. He is really good at scooping balls in the dirt. But so are a lot of 1B and since it's not something that's really recorded I can't say for sure better he is than anyone else. What we do now is that he has crap range and not rated very well defensively.

And you may be right that Freeman would have gotten more money than Heyward on the open market if both were FA's this past offseason. But contract value doesn't always equal on the field value. I can see FO's paying more for hitting simply because hitting has been on a decline. Simple supply and demand. But that doesn't mean Heyward didn't provide more value to the Braves in 2014 than Freeman.
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again, you'd be hard-pressed to find a FO that is willing to give more to Heyward than Freeman. you can't just dismiss that. if a majority of professionals who have jobs and money riding on this agree that Freeman is worth more, he probably is. and if you don't believe Freeman would get more, you're being dishonest. what you're saying doesn't make sense. if Jason were worth more he'd get more. who do you personally think would get mor on the open market?
 
Heyward = Jeff F. (Frency)

yeezus said:
again, you'd be hard-pressed to find a FO that is willing to give more to Heyward than Freeman. you can't just dismiss that. if a majority of professionals who have jobs and money riding on this agree that Freeman is worth more, he probably is. and if you don't believe Freeman would get more, you're being dishonest. what you're saying doesn't make sense. if Jason were worth more he'd get more. who do you personally think would get mor on the open market?
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thewupk said:
I would consider Heyward an all-star with the chance of being a superstar if his current production up til 2014 continues.

Overall defense? Yes SS's are better than RF's and is a more important positions. That's why they get a bump in WAR due to their position and corner outfielders get dinged heavily for it. That still doesn't change the fact that 30 runs saved more than average in right is euqal to 30 more runs saved at short. If you took 2 players that did that at both positions then the SS would have a higher dWAR due to the position. But again, runs saved are runs saved.
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Heyward was not an all-star caliber player last year despite his WAR. his offense is too inconsistent at a position where offense is definitely desired over defense (while not totally discounting defense). he would make not many all-stat teams if he always had seasons like last year, and I don't think he'd deserve to. it's tough to be a RFer with average offense and be considered an elite player. the same is not true at SS, however. an average offensive SS with elite defense is a prized player. an average offensive RFer with elite defense is not. Heyward was more valued for his potential at the plate, even though it's been declining.

but that's just the point. shortstop is a more defensive-oriented position, so if you're well above average there it's worth more than being well-above average at a position where defense is 1) inferior as a whole and 2) not as important. Simmons is a more valuable defensive player than Jason was.
 
yeezus said:
again, you'd be hard-pressed to find a FO that is willing to give more to Heyward than Freeman. you can't just dismiss that. if a majority of professionals who have jobs and money riding on this agree that Freeman is worth more, he probably is. and if you don't believe Freeman would get more, you're being dishonest. what you're saying doesn't make sense. if Jason were worth more he'd get more. who do you personally think would get mor on the open market?
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Really? Predictions for Heyward this offseason is that he would be eyeing a contract close to 200 million. If Heyward rebounds and ends the season anywhere close to last year overall he is going to get megapaid. There is no doubt in my mind about that.
 
thethe said:
Actually for a first basemen its how he digs the ball out.
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I also think the ability to stretch and make the throw that much shorter for the fielder is important as well. Freddie's glove work is elite.
 
thewupk said:
Really? Predictions for Heyward this offseason is that he would be eyeing a contract close to 200 million. If Heyward rebounds and ends the season anywhere close to last year overall he is going to get megapaid. There is no doubt in my mind about that.
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Heyward would probably get more than Freddie in FA, doesnt mean he deserves it.
 
yeezus said:
Heyward was not an all-star caliber player last year despite his WAR. his offense is too inconsistent at a position where offense is definitely desired over defense (while not totally discounting defense). he would make not many all-stat teams if he always had seasons like last year, and I don't think he'd deserve to. it's tough to be a RFer with average offense and be considered an elite player. the same is not true at SS, however. an average offensive SS with elite defense is a prized player. an average offensive RFer with elite defense is not. Heyward was more valued for his potential at the plate, even though it's been declining.

but that's just the point. shortstop is a more defensive-oriented position, so if you're well above average there it's worth more than being well-above average at a position where defense is 1) inferior as a whole and 2) not as important. Simmons is a more valuable defensive player than Jason was.
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I think what you are saying is just old school views. Like how you need power at 3B, lead off hitters need to be fast, etc. Defense matters at all positions. Some positions, like short, are harder to play which is why they get a position boost.

Yes Simmons is more valuable defensively than Heyward. Simmons is one of the best all-time at the hardest positions to play. However Heyward is more valuable defensively than a good number of shortstops.
 
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